can i fit a boiler?


Postby chris_on_tour2002 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:24 pm

wondering where the law stands on diy fitting of boilers. i know that i cannot touch the gas and nor would i want to, but can i legally install the boiler myself and connect up the mains water supply and pipes to the heating, leaving the gas connection to a corgi engineer? and what about the flue?

its a worcester bosch 28 junior greenstar. one other question i am moving it into our spare bedroom which will be in an airing cupboard. i will need a vent on the cupboard door i know, but will i need to put in an airbrick into the room for ventilation as its a gas appliance or does this only apply to gas fires?

thanks,

chris
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Postby htg engineer » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:08 pm

It is illegal for anyone but a CORGI registered installer to hang a boiler on a wall, whether the gas is connected or not. As it is not just the case of the gas connections, the boiler has to be located in a place where there sufficient room for the flue, electrics, condensate discharge pipes, away from opening windows etc etc. You may hang the boiler, when the CORGi registered installer gets there he might say it's no good there.

You could however, run all pipes hang radiators etc and run all pipes to roughly where the boiler will be. Then get a CORGI registered installer to fit boiler, this will reduce labour costs. The boiler will have a warranty but the engineer wont guarantee the pipework etc. If there's any leaks or problems he will probably charge to sort it out. So you might end up not saving as much as you thought.
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Postby chris_on_tour2002 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:41 pm

I've been notified that there has been a reply to my post but I can't view it for some reason... can anybody advise me as to why that might be?
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Postby Regan » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:28 pm

isn't it still possible for someone to install a boiler, and then have a CORGI registered engineer commission the appliance and then get it registered?
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Postby Oliver_murphy » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:52 am

No, afraid not.
Just like Part Centre, and I believe wickes now, willl only sell a gas appliance or gas spare to a Corgi registered engineer.
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Postby htg engineer » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:07 am

If you can find one willing to do that, he has to sign to say that it has been fitted in accordance to the gas installation regulations,

how does he know that if he didn't install it ?

how does he know the installer hasn't taken any shortcuts ?

Should he lift all the floorboards to check pipework ? I have seen installations where it's been 22mm gas supply to boiler, but only 15mm from under the floor to the meter. The boiler required a 22mm gas supply.

Should he dismantle flue and check all seals are correct ?

Any comeback and he could lose his registration, job and if someone was killed, gas explosion or carbon monoxide poisoning - he'd go to jail. I wouldn't sign any new installation off - that i hadn't installed myself.
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Postby Kenj » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:12 pm

I'd like to know just where it says that it is illegal to hang a boiler on a wall.
I did just this a few years ago, and then had a Corgi registered engineer run the gas pipe and commission the bolier.
If it is illegal as htg engineer says, then it should be illegal for Wickes, B&Q etc to sell these products to the general public.
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Postby Kenj » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:47 pm

If boilers require a 22mm gas feed, then why do boilers have a 15mm gas inlet valve?
My boiler gas pipe was run in 22mm by the Corgi engineer, but only because it was not particularly near to the gas meter, and the 22mm pipework would ensure good pressure to the boiler.
However, had it been run in 15mm pipework this may perhaps have affected the output efficiency of the boiler. I fail to see how it could have affected the gas saftey of the boiler.
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Postby htg engineer » Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:03 am

I use the word illegal - because it is. There's been a couple of people on here that complain when I use the word illegal - maybe because the truth hits home. The difference between that's incorrect and that's illegal is that if it's illegal you could be prosecuted.

Gas fitting and plumbing are not the same, just because you can fit a bathroom suite doesn't mean you can fit a boiler. There are routes CORGI engineers and members of the public can take to report DIY and illegal gas work, where people can be and are prosecuted, imprisoned or fined.

'My boiler gas pipe was run in 22mm by the Corgi engineer, but only because it was not particularly near to the gas meter, and the 22mm pipework would ensure good pressure to the boiler.'

If he used 22mm it's because he could NOT use 15mm - not through choice, if he had used 15mm it would be an illegal installation.

What type of boiler are you talking about ?

All boiler I have fitted have a 22mm gas inlet. Older boiler have 15mm inlet but require 22mm gas supply to within 1 metre of the boiler. manufaturers will stipulate the size of the boiler connection - but not the size of the pipe used for the gas run.

If you have a boiler, gas fire and gas cooker ran off 15mm pipework. When the boiler flashes up it could starve the fire and/or cooker of gas, I have seen this happen - if the fire or cooker does not have a flame sensing device on it, then when the boiler reaches temperature and cuts out you have unburnt gas escaping from the cooker and fire.

You need to have the correct gas air mixture for an appliance to burn safely and correctly, if the gas pressure is too low then the flames will not be burning properly this is particularly dangerous on open flued appliance as this is where boilers may soot up and block flues. You also get sooted up combi boilers and are a nightmare to clean.

The permitted pressure drop across a system is 1.0bar, a 15mm gas pipe with more than one appliance bends and joints the pressure drop will be greater than 1.0 bar.

Undersized gas pipework is illegal and dangerous.

If it wasn't then why do we have to sit an assessment and exams on gas pipework sizing ?

Why can't we just use 15mm pipe for every job ?
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Postby Kenj » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:05 pm

You have some valid points about the 15 / 22 mm pipework.
However, you still have not answered my question. See below.

I'd like to know just where it says that it is illegal to hang a boiler on a wall?

You may just be right, but I am fed up with the rumur, bluster and bullying that emanates from the HSE or Brussels. If it is illegal to bolt a boiler to a wall and connect up some water pipes, then I for one have broken this law.
Can anyeone tell me just which particular act of law is being broken (ie Road Traffic Act 1977, Para 22 etc.).
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Postby htg engineer » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:12 pm

I know I have made some valid points, that's why and how I am CORGi registered.

As for hanging a boiler on the wall, when I sat my CCN1 I was assessed by a man that worked for the HSE investigating gas explosions, dangerous situations etc.

He said to me " it is illegal for anyone that is not CORGI registered to even hang a boiler on the wall". As he was a gas assessor and a HSE employee - i took his word on that, and have no reason to think it is not true. He did contact me a while back, so if he does again i'll ask him to clarify this.

As for providing the regulation which states this - i really don't have the time to go through regs looking for it. If you want to then i'd be interested in what you find.
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Postby Oliver_murphy » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:39 pm

the law actually says

"its illegal to work on a gas Fired Appliance, unles competant to do so." The only way to be deemed competant is to sit a CORGI recognised exam. Only then can you work on a gas fired appliance, and, YES, this does inlcude hanging it on the wall, or to get very specific, removing the boiler from the box, as when its removed, its classed as being worked on.

Although you only have to be CORGI registered to work FOR MONEY on a gas appliance, you still have to had sat the CORGI recognised exam, before you are competant to do so. Anything other than this would result in HSE and CORGI taking legal action, and if you are RIDDOR'ed for dangerous work, then good luck for the rest of your life.
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Postby Kenj » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:40 pm

Typical twaddle from the HSE - "its illegal to work on a gas Fired Appliance, unles competant to do so."
You will notice that the HSE do not define work, nor what competent actually means, because this is a legal minefield.
As I have said I have fitted a boiler on more than one occasion, and had a corgi engineer run the gas pipework and commission the boiler. So if the HSE or Corgi would like to take me to court what is stopping them. Other than they would actually have to prove that I am incompetent. That and the fact that I had not touched the gas side of things would make it very hard for them to win their case.
If the HSE or Corgi would like my name and address then I will supply it. Come and take me away, I am an unrepentant law breaker.
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Postby htg engineer » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:25 pm

They could easily prove you are incompetent, believe me. I had 4 years training and I was stressed to bits before the exams. Not a clue of what to expect whether I would pass or not. So someone with no training - wouldn't stand a chance.

The query you had about the pipe sizing - would be a fail in itself. Because you didn't know about pipe sizing. I wish they would take DIYers that do gas work and let them sit the exams.

Oliver_Murphy and myself have explained - to be deemed competent you have to sit and pass CORGI approved examinations.

Oliver-Murphy will tell you - it's not easy to pass, it's not a case of turn up and you'll get a qualification. They wont think twice about failing you if you're not up to standard.

Why do we have to re-sit these assessments every 5 years - if DIYers can please themselves ???

Even Heating Engineers that have worked on gas for many years fail these tests -

so what makes you think you would pass, with no training ????
you wouldn't - therefore you're not competent to work on gas or gas appliances.

You can call everything twaddle:
Part P and all other Electrical Regs
Water regulations
Gas regulations

Why bother with the law and regulations ? we'll all do out own electrical and gas work, gas servicing etc etc - what's the harm.

Just out of interest Kenj are you a tradesman ? if so - what trade ?
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Postby Kenj » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:33 pm

Htg engineer, you are going off at a tangent and missing my main point. Yes you know much more about gas pipe sizes than I do. I have already admitted that, and no I could not pass the Corgi exam, neither do I want to.
However, I still maintain that it it twaddle to issue a statement that it is illegal to touch a boiler unless you are Corgi registered.
Is a Part P qualified electrician breaking the law by connecting the incoming mains electricity to the boiler?
I have always advocated all gas work should be done by a Corgi registered engineer. But, if my boiler were to fail then I will repair / replace it myself, except for the gas bits, unless someone can prove to me that this is illegal.
As I have said if it is illegal then show me the legislation that clearly states this. The HSE is a quango and no more able to pass laws than you or I. Only Brussels or Parliament can do this.
And for your information, no I am not a tradesman. Call me a gifted amateur, who has seen too much shoddy work done by so called professionals that I would not allow most of them accross my threshold.
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