MULTIPLE WIRING QUESTIONS!!!


Postby likelekki » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:39 am

Hi there, I was wondering whether someone more knowlegeable than myself could answer some simple questions - A couple of things I have done already, some I havent done yet. Nothing I believe is dangerous - I just don't know whether it is 'Best practice'!

I just need peace of mind that its, well, legal....(!)

OK here goes!:

(1) I have fitted a shower pump in my airing cupboard and I have connected it to a fused switch which I have place next to the immersion heater fused switch. I have basically taken the feed straight out the back of the immersion heater panel. Is this ok, ie can/should you take a spur from an immersion heater iso switch?

(2) I want to fit a illuminated mirror in the bathroom. There is now powere anywhere nearby to steal... The only thing (ie the easy way) I can think of doing is running a cable down the boxwork that conceals the waste stack, down into the kitchen where there is an abundance of ring/spur circuits to choose from. the mirror is switched locally so it would be an unswitched spur from probably the kitchen ring-main. The run is approx. 5ish metres (no more than 6 hard to tell). so firstly is this ok to do? if so would i need to fuse it down in the kitchen (ie take a spur off the kitchen ring into a fused iso switch and then up thru the boxing to the bathroom and strt into the mirror?) I probably sound like a right cowboy. And yes I realise that its a bathroom and part P etc etc... I just want to know whether its a goer before paying/getting anyone else in...! What else would you sugget? I would try taking a feed from the actual bathroom light but my ceiling its sloped on one side (where the mirror is positioned) and I cannot feed cables throught the ceiling cavity.

(3) Ok this one is something I have already done :? . I thought i would throw it into the mix anyways... I have put a flourescent strip in the loft and basically taken the power from the bedroom ceiling rose by way of a junction box. The bedroom light has 3 wires (sw/supp/loop) so i have taken the live physically outof the rose, into a junction box (which i have screwed into the joist) then back into the rose again; out of the junction box is also the supply and swtch for the florry strip and a standard switch. Is this acceptable?!

(4) I want to put a single 13A socket on the wall behind my flatscreen in the bedroom. This is so i dont have ugly cables hanging down to the floor... All I want to do is take a spur from the twin socket directly below (normal floor level) up to a single (double if there is room) socket around 1600mm-1800mm up. The existing socket does appear either to be a ring/radial as there are two cables out the back already. Is this ok!!!!

(5) Finally (sorry this is so longwinded but hopefully the reponses will be yes's or no's!!) The landing light is a standard rose and I intend on just swapping it out for another rose. What I also want to do though is take a spur off that to a single halogen spotlight that illuminates a picture on the opposite wall. The spot will want to be operated insync with the main landing light so i just need to take a feed from the existing rose...the only thing is there are only two wires (sw/supp) is it still ok to take a spur from this then (does this indicate that this is the end of a radial//??) via a 20A jctn box (similar to the loft but not separately switched).

I think that's it for now!! oH yes, when I come round to finally getting my kitchen done i will probably be back to bother you with more stuff like under-counter lighting and cooker/extractorfan stuff!!! (thats if anyone replies to my long-winded messages) :lol:

many thanks, sorry its dragged on!!!
J ;-P

PSSSSSSS

just remembered one other thing, i have jsut bought today a nice timer switch for my immersion heater - as this is the soul method of heating water in my poxy place! Do i still keep the neon fused switch plate there and come out of that into the timer and then into the immersion OR can I replace it completely with said timer? (just to let you know it is a BnQ own branded 24hr timer, the old analogue rotary type with the push segments...) a MIiiiiiilion thank you's to whoever answers all my asks!!!!x
likelekki
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:03 am

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Postby ericmark » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:04 am

(1) Shower pump seems OK
(2) Using waste stack is out can’t run water services down same service duct as electrical. For work involved may be better to use battery one.
(3) Since lights are not ring mains can’t see why you are taking feed out and back in except for physical room but nothing wrong as far as I can see.
(4) Seems OK but one would normally test it to ensure it is a ring and not a spur with another spur coming off it and that the earth loop impedance and prospective short circuit currents are still within parameters, While just running TV there would not be a problem but it is what gets plugged in latter.
(5) Not quite sure what you are doing but seems OK.
(6) Keep the switched spur timers can’t really be used as isolators.
Remember Pobodies Nerfect and I have not hunted through the regs to check on it all, others my not agree with me. You already know about Part P and this requires the inspection and testing which can be harder than the job.
ericmark


Postby likelekki » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:37 pm

Thanks so much for the reply matey, that has definately cleared most of the things up for me.

just to confirm then:

[quote](2) Using waste stack is out can’t run water services down same service duct as electrical. For work involved may be better to use battery one.[/quote]

Maybe i wont even bother with the bathroom mirror light after all. one question is thou, in the kitchen the cooker switch and a double plug and a lightswitch are all placed on the same piece of boxing that encloses the stack....this was like it when i came here so are you saying these need to be relocated ideally? or is it just that i should not take a cable up from there via the same run as the stack up to the bathroom? (sorry again if im not being overly clear, itd probably be best for me to draw it..) would it be different if the cable where in some trunking or is it out alltogether?

[quote](3) Since lights are not ring mains can’t see why you are taking feed out and back in except for physical room but nothing wrong as far as I can see.
[/quote]
Let me try and clarify, there are two mains cables coming into the bedroom ceiling rose and a switch cable. I have taken one of the mains out and then into a junction box and then back into the rose. this was because there wasnt enought cable slack in the loft space on the mains cable to splice a jcn box into it to get a spur off to the loft light. essentially i have not changed the scheme of things in the bedroom rose, its just been spliced into in effect. The junction box then feed the loft srtip and switch. I was just curious as to whether the spur off the rose was acceptable. I think I may have answered my own quwstion now i have written it all down!?!

[quote]4) Seems OK but one would normally test it to ensure it is a ring and not a spur with another spur coming off it and that the earth loop impedance and prospective short circuit currents are still within parameters[/quote]
How would one test this (i have a multimeter..?) and what are the parameters?

[quote](5) Not quite sure what you are doing but seems OK.[/quote]
basically want to add a halo spot to the landing ceiling rose circuit. the only thing is there are only two cables in the back of this rose (a switch cable and a feed, suggesting maybe end of radial or spur? is it ok to attach another light to this existing setup. i was thinking i would take the rose out completely and put the existing feed and switch able into a junction box in the loft space and the out of there two cables; one to the new spot and one down the old hole for the exisitng rose (make sense?! sorry :oops: !!)

[quote](6) Keep the switched spur timers can’t really be used as isolators[/quote]
yes shall do

[quote]...You already know about Part P and this requires the inspection and testing which can be harder than the job.[/quote]
if I do not do the bathroom mirror, does the rest of the work still require inspection?

Thanks a million for getting back to me, this has been very helpful!!
J[/quote]
[/quote]
likelekki
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:03 am


Postby ericmark » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:06 am

My son tells me using the boxed in part for soil stack is OK and I then looked for where it said you can't but could not find it so maybe I am wrong on that I hope someone else will add to your post.
As to testing the meters used are normally bought as a set of three. An earth loop impedance and prospective short circuit tester which draws a heavy current and then works everything out before displaying it. Second is a high voltage insulation tester that uses 500 volt to ensure there is no leakage and this also has a low ohm meter with full scale of something like 2 ohms and the third meter tests the earth leakage trips but with tripping current and time. They cost around £750 for set of three. Some test can be done without these meters but not all.
We have for many years needed to test all electrical setups before completing and to record all the results. All the Part P has done is to require these results to be sent to building controls for some jobs. Kitchens and Bathrooms always need part p but for rest it says only with a new circuit yet it also talks about Minor works which would not be used with new circuit so is unclear but as far as I tell if your not doing bathroom you may get away without it. Never the less the alterations should still be tested. A full inspection and test should also be done every 10 years or on change of occupier so once you have done everything I would get it all tested anyway even if not under Part P. I borrow my sons meters every time I do a job at home, as an industrial electrician part p has not affected me we are covered by the electricity at work act.
ericmark


Postby ericmark » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:02 am

Missed one, to test ring normally this requires one to remove the wires in consumer unit. Although with all fuses out or all MCB's off and everything unplugged if you test between both lives and both neutrals and both earths you should get a circuit if a ring main between 0.5 and 1 ohm would be normal.
Unless your trained in some way it is better to get electrics done by people who know what they are doing. I know people will try to DIY and not to give information just makes it more dangerous but I have seen so many things go wrong.
Today my son was telling of a house which a builder had wired himself rather than get an electrician in and listing all the errors. Problem arises when we advise something which if wired correct would be no problem but if your house has not been done correct could cause problems. Which is why I always try to get people to have there house inspected and tested so as to pick up on any faults.
As to Part P it should have never been needed if people had tested their houses as recommended in first place.
ericmark


Postby likelekki » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:07 pm

Hi there,
thanks once again for your generous response! i will go ahead and do everything but the bathroom. i will also get an electrician in to check all the work i do, i really think it'll be fine but i always want to be on the safe side with these things and cetainly dont want anything coming back on me if things fail in the future... I think my brother has a friend who is an experienced electrician so maybe he will do it for a mate rate. Would you know roughly how much an electrician would charge, is it by the hour or the type of task involved. It would just want him to test as you mentioned above and check the additional electrics i have fitted. i wouldn't want to go near the consumer unit as i do not know nearly enough about it. I read a lot of books, manuals DIY handbooks, websites etc and have since i was a boy messed around with electricity! I was always taking the stero apart and loved changing plugs (sad i know!) So i have built up a knowledge base and understanding over the years. I am not claiming to be an electrician but i do realise the importance of getting things right with electrics and always make sure i research it enough to the point where i feel i know what to do. Self-teaching is no replacement for a pro though, so I will get someone in to check it. I just feel that i want to do it myself as its really satisfying to be able to do things by yourself for you, in your own home. i think the part P thing makes it harder for experiencedDIYers like myself to do things you know are within your capabilities, but inevitably it does protect everyone down the line so its probably a good thing.
Back to the other stuff, i hope someone else confirms the stack thing as i would like to do it ( i have laid the cable already bhut not connected anything yet...) but in a way i just think it might be too much hassle. Do i have to tell the buiding regs ppl at the council too? someone said to me that you have to nofity them and they will come out and check it too....is this in addition to me getting a spark out to see it myself or instead of - any ideas how much the council charge? can they do post-approval or do they need to know about it before you start?!
cheers buddy, thanks for your time.
j
likelekki
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:03 am


Postby ericmark » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:37 pm

Glad it has helped. I am an industrial electrician although I have worked on houses so as far as a price goes I don’t really know. Part P is even more of a pain for me as I don’t do enough houses to be worth the £600 or so registration fee. But up to now I have only worked on houses belonging to the disabled and it was as a result free. I am sure many people never bother and as yet I have seen no reports of court cases with owner occupier not sure about insurance payout though. The 16th Edition is expensive but the guide is not too bad you may want to get a copy. Nikola Tesla my hero was in the main self taught yet even today some of his experiments have never been repeated. Look him up on Wikipedia. Returning to Part P if you think you need to inform them it has to be before the job has started. BR_PDF_ADP_2006-Part-P-regs.pdf is the down loadable document. There is a planning portal not allowed to give web site link on this but I am sure you can work out where to add the www and the gov.uk to find it. To find it I went to Building Regulations Explanatory Booklet
Then Popular Links and select Part P – electrical safety this then allows one to buy at £15 or free download 4675Kb in this down load there are pictures on how things should be laid out. Sorry I can’t give link but I am sure you will find the Communities government website and go to publications then planningandbuilding and partp to find it. As to post approval this is only allowed with emergency work.
ericmark


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