old CU needs upgrading.


Postby s1bgs » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:44 am

My old CU is the re-wirable fuse type & i`m looking @ upgrading to 17th rgs.
Q. Will it need to be tested after inst. thanx
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Postby BLAKEY1963 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:34 pm

[quote="s1bgs"]My old CU is the re-wirable fuse type & i`m looking @ upgrading to 17th rgs.
Q. Will it need to be tested after inst. thanx[/quote]


S1BGS
I can see u online stay on and i will answer u.
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Postby BLAKEY1963 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:41 pm

[quote="s1bgs"]My old CU is the re-wirable fuse type & i`m looking @ upgrading to 17th rgs.
Q. Will it need to be tested after inst. thanx[/quote]

SIBGS
if u carry out work yourself u need to contact local authority
building control before u start.
they will inspect work.
u would need to fill in relevant test forms from bs7671 2008 ,
and use correct instuments to test with as specified in bs7671
2008.
LOOK at part p on projects section.
If you DO not test yourself , LABC will advise u on this.
if u r upfront and tell them your plans they r normally very
helpful.
you could also have the work carried out by a part registered
Electrician

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Postby BLAKEY1963 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:47 pm

[quote="s1bgs"]My old CU is the re-wirable fuse type & i`m looking @ upgrading to 17th rgs.
Q. Will it need to be tested after inst. thanx[/quote]

s1bgs

i can see u r still online. if you have read reply and respond
it will take a while to be shown

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Postby mephistico » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:59 pm

Bear in mind also that the bonding may be undersized to current regs & a test/inspection is probably due.
With an older installation there is no need to comple with 17th edition regulations. You should concentrate on getting it up to 16th edition (split load board, sockets on RCD 10mm main bonds, supplementary earthing etc)
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Postby ericmark » Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:54 pm

Hi S1bgs,
It seems you have to test all circuits so it is really like doing a complete inspection and test of your house. This may raise points which although need doing have not been included in your estimated cost. So I always test first before starting the job so if there are faults for example borrowed neutrals between up and down stairs lights then one can include these in the total cost before starting.
I am lucky in I can borrow meters from my son and official so traceable record but hiring costs around £70 per week so once started you need to complete in week.
I always take a picture before starting so if I miss a wire in my notes I stand some chance of working out what it was for.
17th gives many options with all RCBO or duel RCD or mix and match of both with three neutral bars. Again careful consideration as best way with regard to both price and function. All RCBO is best but costs and a lot depends on what you use.
Most filters leak around 0.3ma and add it all up then the more RCBO/RCD’s used the less likely any are to trip.
ericmark

Postby Tim Wood » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:56 pm

Hello Eric.I am not an electrician,but I find this Forum very interesting mainly due to the quality of the answers give by you and you fellow electricians.After reading your last post concerning the need in some cases for a consumer unit to have 3 neutral bars.I realize the need for a separate bar for RCD operation and a common neutral.So is the third needed for RCBO use?
Regards Tim
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Postby ericmark » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:41 pm

Yes Tim the new type have one for each of the two main RCD's and one for any RCBO's used.
Reading the 17th Edition it is not plain if it is satisfied by just 2 RCD's but in my house I have had two RCD's covering all since 1991 and no real problems so in practice it is ample.
Eric
ericmark

Postby Tim Wood » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:46 pm

Thanks for your reply Eric.So to make sure I understand the 3 neutral bars arrangement. What you are saying is 2 are used for independent RCD circuits and the third could be used for RCBO's and normal MCB?
Regards Tim
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Postby ericmark » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:16 pm

Yes screwfix call it a "Hi Integrity Dual RCD Board & Devices" the one they sell is made by Wylex. At £137 they are not cheap and using another make one may be able to use all RCBO's at same cost. But screwfix do a good web site and you should easy find the example and picture 3 shows the bars very well.
Eric
ericmark

Postby BLAKEY1963 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:08 am

[quote="s1bgs"]My old CU is the re-wirable fuse type & i`m looking @ upgrading to 17th rgs.
Q. Will it need to be tested after inst. thanx[/quote]


S1BGS
Just to add to ericmarks info , denmans electrical wholesale
do a high integrity board at a better price .

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Postby ericmark » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:16 pm

Thank you Blakey1963 I should have made it plain they are cheaper else where I have only given screwfix as an example where you can see pictures on a web site where I live there is an electrical whole sale outlet across the road from screwfix and the only time they failed to beat screwfix price was on a radio controlled tank thermostat for a central heating system.
All best Eric
ericmark

Postby Tim Wood » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:34 pm

Thanks Eric I had a look at Screwfix's picture,it shows it all. Don't you think the electric trade in general is going over the top these days?Progress and safety is one thing but before long it will be like the car trade.Not so long a go if you had a ampere and volt meter you could fix just about any
electrical problem on a car.Now you need a thousand pounds worth of equipment to fix even a simple fault
Tim
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Postby ericmark » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:25 am

For many years electricians working on houses had very little training. We in the commercial side referred to them as “House Bashers” in a derogative way and some of the work completed was well under standard. There were of course good ones as well but all got tarred with same brush. Unlike the commercial side the people employing these electricians had no idea how go or bad they were and qualifications meant nothing to normal house holder. There was a need to licence electricians so the normal house holder knew if the guy he was employing did know what he was doing.

The first attempt was JIB and NAECI the former issued a card the latter has computer data base and for firms employing sparks it worked of sorts although when I with a degree in electrical and electronic engineering applied to JIB for a card they wanted me to register as a Electricians mate don’t think I need to tell you reply. Although this helped firms it did not help the private house holder and many dangerous jobs were completed.

Part P was an attempt to redress this problem and in many ways it has but there are problems in it was designed to let the DIY man or Industrial Electrician to continue to be able to do work on domestic but to fit a extra socket in a kitchen would cost around £50 but the local council want £70 just to register the work. And in some cases the council charge silly amounts so the DIY man etc. have shunned the system and carried on regardless where had it been a reasonable price they may have followed the law. On the other hand had it not been a high price that the councils charged, firms may have not joined the umbrella companies licensed to over see the commercial side of Part P.

For registered small firms it has worked, and even sole traders now have their work checked from time to time and in general the workmanship is now a lot better than the industrial electrician can afford to do. The big thing is they have to have the test equipment and all work is tested on completion so silly mistakes are found.
For the larger firms there is still a problem where electricians are employed to do one off jobs and can work for the firm for a year without ever being checked by the umbrella company who seem to rely in the main on the larger firms own management hierarchy.

While this was all going on the industrial standard setters also realised there were too many accidents and some of these could be avoided by altering the standards to include some of the new technology now available, and to harmonise more with our EEC partners. The rest of Europe has not adopted our 13 amp socket and have relied much more on RCD protection then we have now we have also embraced the protection afforded by the RCD.

With both going on at the same time we have now a very safe system. But the problem of the last 20 years will not go away with the bang of the law makers mitre and in the mean time Electricians are having a hard time where seemingly simple jobs have be much more complex where not only have the requirements increased but in the past the requirements were never met anyway. How many house holders have their house checked every 10 years or change of ownership? We all see it. “It was like that when I moved in.” so where was the solicitor and why didn’t he ask to see the periodic inspection report. Now they are also catching up and are starting to ask to see the PIR’s and completion certificates. Which means a job done today, may have the report viewed in 9 years time. Any faults found could result in an Electrician being fined 9 years after doing the job. Any wonder they will not cut corners?

I here the cash in hand no paper work brigade are doing well as they can under cut the registered electrician and by telling the house holder that really they should register the work under Part P but if you don’t say anything neither will I then they have not really committed a crime as it is the house holders responsibility to ensure the work is registered. And if the work is not up to scratch the house holder is afraid to report it as they already know what they did was illegal. This of course suits the no paper work brigade as unless really bad no one is likely to report them. Like stealing off a thief. Only way to reduce this is for council to reduce their charges.

Of course very annoying to registered sparks who are then asked to correct the work often having to rip it out and start again. The owner tells them it was done years ago but we all know it wasn’t and the tighter money gets the more it happens.

Hear endeth the lesson Eric
ericmark

Postby Tim Wood » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:41 pm

Thanks for the lesson Eric.You are certainly not the man to use half-measures when it comes to answering questions.
Regards Tim :wink: :wink:
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