Part P notice required?


Postby GeoffT » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:35 pm

I've converted a large bedroom into 2 with a stud wall. I need to move the position of the original ceiling rose, add a new one to the same lighting circuit with another switch for the new bedroom. I have read the Part P documents and reckon that this should be "non-notifiable" as it is "adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit".

Would welcome a second opinion before I start work.

Thanks
GeoffT
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Postby Mill Spark » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:11 pm

Hi Geoff

Providing any of the two new rooms are NOT going to be a kitchen or bathroom, then yes you can install extra lighting and switches.
Glad to see you've read up first regarding Part P. How confident are you on extending the light circuit as some people can find the wiring connections to ceiling roses confusing. It may be an idea to check the projects page "replacing a light fitting" first.

Good luck

Andy
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Postby GeoffT » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:58 am

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the confirmation. Both rooms involved will be bedrooms and neither have any sinks/showers etc.

I'm fairly confident regarding the lighting circuit. I have always done my own wiring prior to Part P. I must admit that I did find the ceiling rose wiring confusing the first time I did any, but once you know what to expect it's OK. From what I had read in the press, I had thought that Part P put an end to any DIY electical work, but was pleased to read in the details that I am still allowed to do "minor" work. It would have been a pain to get a pro in twice to do first fix and second fix before and after the skimming of the stud wall (the new light switch is going to be in it).


Geoff
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Postby Elec Rich » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:15 pm

Just thought I would add to this - you are right that you do not have to notify this work, but you still have to fill out a minor works certificate for the work which means that you still need a competent electrician to do the work (ie. Part P Compliant Electrician)
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Postby sparx » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 pm

further to elec rich's post you can be a competent electrician, and fill in minor works cert for this work without being Part p reg.
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Postby Elec Rich » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:04 pm

Hi Sparx,

I agree with what you are saying about the fact that you can fill out the "minor works cert." without being Part P registered, but I would not recommend this unless you have got all the relevant experience of the 16th edition regs. - this is what I think anyway. I doubt that the guy has the relevant test equipment to be able to test the circuit correctly too and does he know how to fill out the minor works form correctly.

Don't mean to be a pain - sorry

Elec Rich
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Postby GeoffT » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:06 pm

Sorry but I'm confused now. Having read the Part P documents, the work I am planning appears to "non-notifiable" in the same way that replacing a damaged socket outlet would. Are you saying that even for this work, some form of certificate has to be completed? I can see nothing about that in the regs. Surely "non-notifiable" means just that?

Geoff
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Postby GeoffT » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:44 pm

I've just found the references to inspection and testing of minor work in Part P. it seems that the minor work certificate only applies if the work is carried out by those qualified to BS7671. All it says with regard to DIY minor work is that "DIYers may wish to employ a qualified third party to carry out inspection and testing of non-notifiable work to make sure it is safe" I think the important word is "may", it certainly doesn't seem like it is compulsory.

Bearing in mind that minor work could simply be replacing a cracked socket, it would surely be ridiculous if it cannot be a purely DIY job.
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Postby sparx » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:11 pm

geofft
Minor works has a legal definition under IEEregs which since becoming BS 7671 ARE legally binding and any works coming into that catagory require certs. However the sort of work you refer to such as replacing accessories like for like is NOT minor works it is not anything to do with part p which only applies to location & method of carrying out work.
To alter wiring as you propose is not notifiable as we have both said BUT alterations to any circuit wiring ALWAYS HAS required testing and recording on test sheets, this is not new it's just most people never bothered but since partp the authorities have become aware of the situation.
As Elec Rich says you won't have means of doing paperwork yourself or test gear ,
I am very aware of confusion over this but a lot of blame lies with misinterpritation by 'Sheds' How to do it leaflets which obviously don't want to lose sales from DIY.
Hope this is not taken in the wrong way, it's nice when after 40 years of 'talking to ourself' some people like yourself are trying to get it right.
best wishes SPARX
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Postby GeoffT » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:07 pm

Hi Sparx,

So to clarify the situation as interpreted by you (I hope!).

The work I am proposing is not notifiable under Part P. As such I can do it myself.

However, the work needs to be tested (and recorded) by a qualified person once completed.

Presumably then you beleive this would also apply if I was simply replacing a damaged socket?

I have to say this is not how I had interpreted the rules, and if your interpretation is correct, then I can understand why electricians are in favour of it!!!! Licence to print money or what !!!!! Blair's nanny state rolls on unabated.

I might just dig out my old reel of red/black T&E ;-)
GeoffT
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Postby sparx » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:57 pm

No you do not need to test / cert/ report etc like for like replacement parts. nor do you need to notify certain minor works such as adding / moving a light or socket Providing they are not in a 'special location' which basically means kitchen, bathroom,outdoors & a few other places but all circuit alterations/ additions do need test certs. nothing to do with bldg regs Part P. this is electrical regs B.S.7671 which are enforceable in law.
What a mess but as you say good for registered /qualified leckies,
It's no different to CORGI gas when it started, now nobody questions the rules there so why is much more dangerous form of energy so emotive?
regards Sparx
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Postby GeoffT » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:17 pm

Sparx,

I am really grateful for all of your input on this, but I am getting more confused rather than less.

As I understand it, Part P was primarily bought in to stop DIYers doing their own (major?) wiring work.

However, you are saying that, for the work I propose, it is not Part P that is restricting me, it is the testing and certification to B.S.7671 which hasn't changed and has always been a legal requirement for any circuit change.

If that is the case why was Part P required, and why have I and thousands of other DIYers been able to do wiring work over the last 25 years (in my case) without any comeback or problem (legally or in terms of safety)? Have I always been breaking the law doing circuit changes, it's just that no-one bothered about it prior to Part P?

I'd also have to take issue with your CORGI comparison, in my opinion Gas supplies and appliances with the potential for explosion and carbon monoxide poisoning are way more dangerous in a domestic environment that electricity. With a modern RCD consumer unit there is surely very little chance of death or even injury from domestic electricity.

Regards

Geoff
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Postby sparx » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:36 pm

HI geoff,
If you check with HSE they will tell you that over 100 more people die each year from electicution and electrically induced fires than from gas/ flue related causes,
As for Part P we are stuck with it because of bad workmanship by a kitchen fitter!
Story goes...
a kitchen fitter moved some sockets, he chased out wall to allow the cables to be diverted side ways at an angle where they came down the wall, made good wall, fitted new skt. job done.
house holder or other tradesman later fitted s.steel utility kitchen toolholder and put screw into live conductor, at this time power to kitchen off for other works.
Lady of the house came home, reached across metal sink to get utensil AND DIED.....
Her mother was an M.P. she asked questions,
Final outcome O.D.P.M. (2 Jags old dept.) decided to tighten up leckie work by making it a controlled service under bldg regs.
As bldg control officers not usually elect. qualified it was decided to set up some agencies to oversee it's operation as with Corgi hence my comparison.
Regards and thanks for debates ,SPARX
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Postby GeoffT » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:34 pm

Yes, of course I was forgetting that there is no such thing as an accident anymore - someone must be responsible (and more importantly,liable).

I'm surprised this story didn't result in the total banning of metal ktichen fittings, metal sinks and anyone drilling a hole in any wall within 15m of gas/electric/water pipes/cables without a government official and a pack of lawyers looking over their shoulder.

Back on topic - I have looked at a huge number of sites regarding Part P and my original question. I have not found anywhere else that says that non-notifiable work carried out by a DIYer needs to be tested by a qualified person. They simply list the work that can be DIYed and the work that can't.

Having read and re-read Part P itself , I am convinced that I am able to do the work myself, and that testing of the work by a qualified person is only optional (the word "may" is used with regard to testing following DIY non-notifiable work- as mentioned earlier).

Based on that, I am going to go ahead and do the work myself. I am confident that I can do the work safely and to the regulations. If and when I come to sell the property, I am happy to get to whole wiring system tested at that time if required for the HIP (another great government idea in action!)

P.S If the wiring police are reading this, I use a pseudonym on here my real name is Gordon, and my next door neighbour, and best mate, Tony knows some very dodgy people, so best leave me alone!
GeoffT
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Postby sparx » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:26 pm

Good for u 'gordon'...
you & your mate 'Trust Mark Tony' will make a lovely couple, and I'm sure, helped by 'Sailor John' Princess Tony's side kick you will manage a good job.....
You are right of course, you as a 'well meaning amateur' can get away with doing virtually anything but heaven help the 'Qualified professional' if he gets it wrong he will be hung out to dry, I love my country, honest I do, just got to renew my ECA membership @£800+, oh & my NAPIT annual inspection due at another £380+ plus a days lost earnings whilst someone who thinks he knows more than my 40 + years in the trade tries to find fault with my work.....Why do we bother, roll on retirement!...
Sorry getting all bitter & twisted again , really nice 'talking ' to you,best wishes SPARX
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