Problem with kitchen lighting


Postby cabbs » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:23 pm

Hi there, I would be most grateful if anyone could help.

A couple of years back i had kitchen and dining room knocked into one.
Whilst the work was been done i had the kitchen wiring renewed. Plug sockets and ceiling lighting.

Both ceiling points were linked so in order to only have one switch to power both lights.
I fitted 2 sets of lights bought from b&q. They are the the type with 4 spot lights on each containing gu10 50watt holegen bulbs.
They both worked perfectly until recently when my son flooded the bathroom and water seaped through.
I left them to dry out for 2 weeks and upon turning them back on they worked fine.
Now when i turn the kitchen lights on by the switch they come on for a short time (10 seconds or so) then both go out.
They do not trip the electric off.
Ive removed the lights fittings in order to replace them and put two brandnew ceiling roses up and now im getting one light with doesnt power up and one which stays on permantly regardless of using the switch.
The only way it powers off is when i switch it off at the fusebox.

Where am i going wrong?????? The previous lights used all three wires and these ceiling roses only have 2....
Please help

Many thanks

cabbs
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Postby ericmark » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:09 am

A ceiling rose will normally have four connections.
1) Earth
2) Neutral
3) Line (Loop)
4) Line (Switch)
If you connect your new lamp to Line (Loop) instead of Line (Switch) it will stay on all the time.
The Line (Switch) wire is often the same colour as the Neutral wire with either a sleeve of tape to show what it is. The sleeves often fall off and care is needed to identify it before disconnecting anything.
If you have got them mixed up the cables will need ringing out and I would think this would be beyond most DIY'ers
There are help pages under projects or look at http://www.ericmark.talktalk.net/lights.htm which may help.
Eric
ericmark

Postby cabbs » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:29 pm

[quote="ericmark"]A ceiling rose will normally have four connections.
1) Earth
2) Neutral
3) Line (Loop)
4) Line (Switch)
If you connect your new lamp to Line (Loop) instead of Line (Switch) it will stay on all the time.
The Line (Switch) wire is often the same colour as the Neutral wire with either a sleeve of tape to show what it is. The sleeves often fall off and care is needed to identify it before disconnecting anything.
If you have got them mixed up the cables will need ringing out and I would think this would be beyond most DIY'ers
There are help pages in the projects.
Eric[/quote]

Damn, im baffled eric..
My wiring differs slightly as to the way you describe it.
I now have two bundles of wires hanging down from the ceiling. One bundle for each room if you get me.

The first bundle goes into a block connector containing 4 points.
The first hole has 2 red wires with a piece of black insulation tape around.
The second hole has earth wires.
The third has 3 black wires.
And the fourth has 3 red wires.

In the other room the wires again go into a block connector.
The first hole contains 2 reds
The second has 2 blacks.
The third has earths
And the fourth has just 1 red.

I just want to use the normal 2 wire basic fittings in each room to give me lighting for the time being until b&q replace my lights.
These fittings only have 2 wires. A blue and a brown.
Which hole in the block connectors do i attach them to??

I think this could be a job for an electrician as im close to being the bulb..ha-ha.

regards

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Postby ericmark » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:49 am

The first bundle goes into a block connector containing 4 points.
The first hole has 2 red wires with a piece of black insulation tape around.
[Switch wires one from switch one to next lamp seems wired correct with twin and earth with two red wires going to switch this will connect to brown in new lamp]
The second hole has earth wires.
The third has 3 black wires.
[Neutral wires this will connect to blue in new lamp]
And the fourth has 3 red wires.
[Loop wires]

In the other room the wires again go into a block connector.
The first hole contains 2 reds
The second has 2 blacks.
The third has earths
And the fourth has just 1 red.
[Something wrong with count we have a red and black together in a cable or two reds in a cable so either red count = black count or reds have 2, 4, etc more than blacks not just 1 as a result unable to work out how it is likely to be connected.]


I just want to use the normal 2 wire basic fittings in each room to give me lighting for the time being until b&q replace my lights.
These fittings only have 2 wires. A blue and a brown.
Which hole in the block connectors do i attach them to??

Old red = new brown and old black = new blue but seems you will need someone skilled to work out second light as the information you give is not enough for me to work out what you have done.

Eric
ericmark

Postby securespark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:18 am

Eric: Perhaps these cables are not all twin & earth?

If there were singles, that could make sense. The 3 reds/blacks at the first could be the loop with another attached. The two reds could be a single from the switch & a switched line to the other fitting. The two reds/blacks at the other fitting could be the loop again. All depends how it's been wired up!

Like you say, it sounds like the OP has connected one fitting to the loop rather than the switched line, to get one on all the time.
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Postby ericmark » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:31 pm

Yes securespark it is possible but unless the standard twin and earth system is used I think to instruct an non professional on how to test and correct is asking for problems.
When I first came onto this forum I tried to make an instruction set for working out which was the switch wire when people had lumped it together with neutrals.
I carefully set by step using the lamp itself as a test lamp went through a logic procedure.
But so many people got into a knot with it I stopped posting it. Electricians could follow it and confirmed no errors but still the DIY people were getting into knots.
I am dyslexic so may be it was my English at fault and I would not stop you from trying and will watch with interest.
All best Eric
ericmark

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