socket distance


Postby tt » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:50 pm

hello there

I'm having a gas hob fitted, what I'd like to get answered is where in the 16th edition or on side guide can I find the distance a socket has to be away from the hob I assume because of the heat and water/steam there will be a minimum safe distance, could the right type connector blocks be used with a blank plate over it, if yes does it need to be sealed

Same question about socket distance from a sink, the nearest is 615mm the width of a work top away the socket is around 175mm from the top of work top

I have the 16th edition and on site guide to study for a 2381 I'm aiming to train as an electrician

Also i'm looking for a book on part p is there one available or any other books useful for studying.

I'm also looking to buy a tester, the one I'm thinking of getting is a megger multi function tester it's alot of money but it's worth it's weight with this type of work. any helpful advice

thanks tom.
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Postby sparx » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:39 pm

Hi tt,
as with most other things it's a judgement call as regs don't give absolute distances ,
you could fit a socket directly on a sink splash back if it was an IP65 rated, sealed outdoor type ...not pretty but legal...
I have had a megger MFT1502 multifunction tester for 3 years & 3 months,
I know how long as one of it's rotary switches died recently, I took it back to factory & was told it was just out of it's 3 YEAR warrentee! but it was looked at, new complete switch plate assembly, new connector socket assembly, new power supply module fitted. returned less than 1 week later in new 'blow-moulded' case with new cal. cert. & F.O.C. now I know where I will get my next meter if I ever need one!!! usual disclaimers.
regards SPARX
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Postby ericmark » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:55 pm

There are links on projects to Part P online version which is free. As to testers one have to consider light fingers and also what company provides. Everywhere I have worked company have provided the meters required for filling in test data and I would have go into trouble had I used my own because of traceability of calibration certificates. I sneaked in my own clamp on meter to help fault find and a blind eye was turned as to its use as nothing measures was recorded. My son has used his own meters which he originally bought when working for himself. Not something we really can advise on. As to Gas hobs there is a distance but don't know what I worked with CORGI reg guy who would often refuse to fit cookers as cupboards were too close. He also fitted electric cookers and didn't have a single test instrument. So I guess the gas people must have checked his work and electrically he never got caught out? But not an electrical reg. I seem to remember something about isolators must be accessible even if there is a cooker fire so can't be mounted behind cooker on wall but no idea as to 16th Edition ref number. May be another old wifes tale like so many more mythical regulations.
ericmark

Postby kbrownie » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:54 am

tt
As already stated in earlier post, some of the regs are difficult to interpriate and a statement of absolute fact is difficult to determine.
I believe the distance for outlets from cooker hobs to be a minimum 300mm. But again common sense says in exces of kettle and flex microwave and flex, toaster etc...
There is a book on Part P which is a guide to part p of the building regs and sanctioned by The IEE, which looks a bit like on-site guide but green. I guess this it will change this year as 17th edition makes it's way in.
I have Megger MFT1552, which does just about everthing, I like it but not everyones cup of tea.
Regards
KB
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Postby tt » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:06 pm

Hello Again

Thank you to all three replies, what I'l do is leave it in place until it causes a problem I do have the blanking plate but i wasn't sure about the connector blocks would i be on the right lines to use the 30 a type block can heat shrink be used or is not good practice

As for the tester I'l have to have a bit more advice first,
buying is the easy part knowing I'v got the right one plus how to use it the hard part.
I was told by my instructor that i'l need to use one for the exam 2391 Inspection and testing.

The 17th edition is on onother site priced at £61 is that the full version
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Postby thedoctor » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:21 pm

Follow this link to get to Amazon and seacrh for 17th edition.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1859608000?t ... P0H2C2JQC&
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Postby 333rocky333 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:25 pm

The IEE
Electricians guide to the building regulations

it is about £15 and is a good start,
It is like the on site guides .
However the new 17th version wont be out yet

part p
300mm from sink or hob
minimum of 150mm above the work surface
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Postby tt » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:26 pm

to the doctor

thank you for that link I've ordered the 17th edition
it will be with me on thursday

Does this mean the on site guide will be up dated to in the near future.

Can anyone comment on the book "electricians guide to part p" ? is it worth having to understand what part p is all about.
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Postby tt » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:22 pm

Thank you 333rocky333

The sockets are all at 165mm from worktop the closest to the sink is 700mm

there are 2 double sockets that fall 135mm to close to the hob once it's fitted, these sockets have been in place along time, is the only solution get someone to move them or use face plates if plates are used how will they stay connected is there special connectors or is the rating more important

what I've read on other posts is they have to have a plate in place to show the route of cables, is that correct.

How do you get the experiance with electrics if you can't touch anything.


I've learnt alot from doing and looking at whats been done already then trying to understand how and why, the on site guide and 16th edition have help understand bites peaces.

thanks again
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Postby kbrownie » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:32 am

Hi tt,
A few point s to add/make,
THE ELECTRICIAN'S GUIDE TO THE BUILDING REGULATIONS
this book covers part p and is the same size as the on-site guide and has a green cover. It's more reader friendly than the on-site guide and the 16th edition/17th BS7671. But it is a GUIDE! that is suppose to help you understand the regulations more clearly.
The socket-outlets that need blanking plates will be terminated behind the plate to give continuity using a suitable connection block, this needs to be done to identify where the cables are routed behind the wall these are permitted routes, that require no mechanical protection. You can route outside these areas, but the cable must be at least 50mm from any surface area or installed in earth protected metal conduit,trunking etc..

This country is now all geared up for health and safety (which in most cases is not a bad thing) and nearly everything we do regarding work and even DIY now! Is subject to that! Even though some of the laws contradict themselves and others. The top and bottom of it is that most electrical work done in the home is now regulated by part p.
It is frustrating when your not allowed to do things in your own home, especialy when you try to get the Professionals in (not bodie and doyle) and they take for ever and a day to turn up, then charge you an arm and a leg and sometime the job could have been done is not up to scratch!
A few years ago, we was all told by the goverment to get on our bikes, and we could just jump on one and pedal away. Now we are told we can't unless we wear helmets arm pads and knee pads! The end of the day it's all about the safety of lives and your property and that's why these laws are in place.
Have you ever thought about taking a course, it's a wonderful thing "the science of electricity"
Kind Regards
KB
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Postby kbrownie » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:36 am

Hi
you can get 17th edtion for about 58 pound that's delivered, If you look on Amazon UK.
KB
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Postby tt » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:45 pm

thank you kbrownie,

My electrcians guide to part p was delivered today and the 17th edition 2mrw

what you have said makes alot sense, the job I do now involves long hours by the time i get home I'd be to tied to do an evening classes I am going to get my 2381 before easter then in my spare time keep reading the books and ask questions on this site aslong as I get a reply.

I'm confident I could rewire a house including the cu but i would do half the correct way as in sockets and cable but I don't completly know why i'd be using that size cable,
example 6mm t&e with 32a mcb and rcd protection for a shower upto x amount of watts when and how to would work out when I'd need to use 10mm with 40a mcb I've used the books to try and work it out but I don't know and understand half the wording they use or the maths to get to work it out,

then there is the testing to think about. Can any testing be done with a standard multi meter just to get an idea how to do it.

thanks.
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Postby 333rocky333 » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:47 am

The building regs guide I have is like blakeys green, there is a newer one brown with the harm colours in it now, 17th not yet available I dont think.

There is also a quide out for the actual 17th regs but not sure how detailed this is regarding domestic building regs

I have the green book but dont actually do domestic so dont really use it.

It is by the Iee same as the regs and is quoted in the online part p as helping you conform, it is not just part p but other related regs as well
I think it is worth it, about £20 and will assist you working with the regs book

However, some things I have quoted from it have been slated by so called domestic installers.
Maybe because the stuff in it is not in the 16th and they dont Actually Know themselves.
Hopefully in the 17th it will confirm with whats in the book

As far as I know there has always been a distance from the sink since before the 14th regs

As for the 300mm from the sink, FROM the book mentioned, I have since been told thats rubbish and you can actually put it IN the sink if you want,so do you go by the IEE book or listen to someone like that, a so called domestic installer proberly done a short course and never even read the book.

SO PLEASE get someone to confirm BEFORE taking my advice on that.

I am now not sure whether it just goes over the top on some things to ensure you comply.

I did notice in there picture , two lighting circuits were bunched in mcb though,upstairs and downstairs.
and even in the iee magazine,I always thought that was wrong
But the iee show it or maybe they are wrong
I would like to see the official part p spec but dont know where that is.
If any one knows WHERE (not the onlinepart p , but the actual requirements please)
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Postby 333rocky333 » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:08 am

If you have the money look at the IEE , they do about 8 guide books each covering a different subject , if you can read them you should know how to work out most things and will only need the practical side whichyou never stop learning.

On other forums people slate elects replys and they turn out to be non elects who have read up,unfortunately they are sometimes right and the skilled man with good practical knowledge was let down by his theory side.

IT is a bit boring but actually read your regs book a bit at a time , miss out bits like hot tubs and caravans and all the fusing discrimination stuff for now, and you will get an idea.
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Postby 333rocky333 » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:18 am

Imo
Forget the fancy tester it will do the job for you,
but you wont really know why and what your doing
Ideal if you are self employed and time is money
Maybe get one later

I have the proper case
In it there is
RCD/PSC tester
ins res tester
ELI TESTER

My mate just left college brought one loads of money, does everything, he has never used it,dont know how.
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