Surface mounted light fitting & ceiling rose


Postby fencingbear » Mon May 04, 2009 8:36 pm

I have a new flush mounted light fitting, but the existing ceiling rose is screwed to the ceiling soffit so won't allow flush fixing of the new fitting.

The light fitting looks like a stainless steel dinner plate with the bulb holder and associated terminals in the middle, a hole for cables to come through and has three screw holes in the base plate in a circle approx 200mm in diameter for fixing to the ceiling.

If I can avoid it I don't want to cut a rose sized hole in the ceiling and install a new junction box. I'm thinking I might be able to fit some sort of spacer ring to bring the light fitting down about 50mm, but am prepared to accept that this idea might be bonkers.

Anyone dealt with this problem before ? All advice welcome.
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Postby bd3cc » Mon May 04, 2009 10:10 pm

it is bonkers!
Remove the existing ceiling rose( how many wires do you have in it-2or 6 excluding earths?)
Reconnect new fitting to existing wires either through existing hole in new fitting or cut a new one to suit, and use a grommet
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Postby rosebery » Mon May 04, 2009 10:28 pm

If your fitting has the same terminals as a rose you don't need a rose and you don't need a JB either. Just conect cables direct to fitting.

What do you mean by ceiling soffit?

Cheers
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Postby fencingbear » Tue May 05, 2009 10:33 am

[quote="bd3cc"]it is bonkers!
Remove the existing ceiling rose( how many wires do you have in it-2or 6 excluding earths?)
Reconnect new fitting to existing wires either through existing hole in new fitting or cut a new one to suit, and use a grommet[/quote]

Ceiling rose has 6 inbound wires and looks thoroughly conventional, like the image [url=http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/lights_and_switches.htm]here[/url]

Light fitting only has Live/Neutral/Earth terminals, but needs to flat mount to the ceiling.

If I remove the ceiling rose what do I do with the loop and neutral wires that don't go to the fitting ? Just screwing them into their respective blocks and poking them back up through the ceiling seems a bit, well, lethal, for the next guy to lift an upstairs floorboard.
Pulling them down through the hole in the light fitting and connecting them to blocks could work, but to my untrained eye feels like a bodge. Also the blocks would need to be really carefully insulated so as not to short to the steel fitting.
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Postby sparx » Tue May 05, 2009 1:05 pm

Rosebery, I think he means a joist!
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Postby fencingbear » Tue May 05, 2009 2:32 pm

Rosebery, Sparx

A soffit is "the underside of any construction element". In this case it's the white thing I see when I walk in the room and look up...

The point being, my 3 wire light fitting (that I'm starting to regret purchasing) is meant to fix flat to the underside of the ceiling but can't because there's a 6 wired ceiling rose in the way.

It'd be easier to explain if I could draw it on a fag packet. If I smoked.
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Postby rosebery » Tue May 05, 2009 5:56 pm

I thought so too but it never hurts to ask for clarification. Could (prolly 0.0000000001 % chance) have been an external light under the eaves LoL.

Cheers
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Postby bd3cc » Tue May 05, 2009 9:47 pm

All the neutral wires(2) can go to the neutral terminal of the fitting, the switch live ( probalby black insulatin, but may be marked with red/brown sleeving) should go to the L terminal of the fitting, and the 3 reds can be brought into the fitting, into a dummy terminal/connector, and positioned away from the lamp. If concerned by the lamp heat factor, use a ceramic connector.
All wires internally in the fitting should have heat proof sleeving(probably supplied with the fitting.)
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Postby steve the plumber » Tue May 05, 2009 9:56 pm

You can use blocks (make sure they are 5amp) and connect up as per usual circuit. Just make sure that you use insulating tape around the blocks to stop them touching the light plate.

So what you should have is:

3 live wires in one block

1 neutral mains, neutral from switch and neutral light flex in another block

1 live from switch and live light flex.

The two light flexes go into the live/neutral connector on the light and the earth with the remaining earth wires from the circuit.
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Postby bd3cc » Tue May 05, 2009 10:08 pm

Bring all 6 cores into fitting,+ earths.
Then 3earths to earth terminal, 2 neutrals to fitting neutral terminal,
swtch live (black but may be marked re/brown) to L terminal.
The 3 remaining reds need to be connected together in a dummy terminal( connector block) and moved away from the lamp heat.
All cores to be covered in heat proof sleeving, which should have been supplied with the fitting
hth
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Postby kbrownie » Tue May 05, 2009 10:11 pm

What you have is loop in connections, you should have three reds which need terminating together in a connection block this can be poked back up in to the ceiling void or inside light fitting if enough room.
Then you have three blacks two are neutrals and should be connected to your neutral terminal on fitting, the other is a switch wire (should have a red flag to identify it) this is connected to your live terminal on fitting, then all earths to earth terminal.
Hopefully this enable you to fit the light flush to ceiling!
Kb
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Postby fencingbear » Wed May 06, 2009 2:43 pm

OK, looks like the answer is pretty simple, then - blocks & insulating tape.

Thanks for your advice everybody.
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Postby bd3cc » Wed May 06, 2009 8:28 pm

Just a quick note to Steve, you have only accounted for 5 wires.
There should be 2 neutrals in the fitting, 1 in 1 out to the next light on the circuit, otherwise lights further on the circuit will not work.
The black wire that comes back from the switch is in fact a switched live and should be flagged as such. (At one time you could buy double red core T+E for this purpose), because it is uncommon to have a neutral at a light switch, but does occur sometimes. Generally on a lighting circuit only the phase is switched.
regards
bd3cc
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Postby steve the plumber » Thu May 07, 2009 12:08 pm

There is. I just didn't put a number next to it!
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