total rewire of an old house with many types of wire


Postby rob.c » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:40 pm

hi, i wish to rewire my sisters old house as we are renovating it from top to toe. i have read alot about 17th edition but am confused as to who i should advise of my impending work. the old house has a combination of old rubber coated,braided waxed and both old red/black/green,yellow and new harmonised brown/blue/green and yellow wires. there is a double pole switch before the consumer unit so all but the main incoming tails from the overhead feed from the supplier could be isolated. i wish to rewire the whole house myself. i completed a full plumbing course c&g,nvq 1,2,3 , advanced craft 1+2, plus electric course connected with the plumbing qualifications at the time but all these have lapsed since i completed them back in the 80's. i feel i have the knowledge and understanding to complete this task including outside work but need to know if i am allowed to do it myself and get it tested then signed off with help from my local building authority?? or do you have to be a fully 17th edition qualified electrician to carry out the proposed work?? can anyone advise or point me in the right direction please :D
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Postby BLAKEY1963 » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:38 pm

ROB.C
Contact your local authority building control , and pay thier fee.
They will tell you what is required , for you to undertake the work yourself.

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Postby sparx » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:20 pm

Blakey is quite right,LABC will send someone to visit when you have done cabling but before making-good/second fix to check on cable routes and compliance with building regs.
later when job done they will revisit to check on fittings etc.
However they do not carry out full electrical tests and will just give you a piece of paper with some ticked boxes! This just says installation conforms to building regs.
It is not allowed for a 3rd party electrician to certify someone elses work so you will not have any certificate for the installation if later required for a sale , mortgage, rental or other purposes.
Whilst you do not need to be fully qualified to do the work how will you confirm the circuits conform to regs.?
Do you have sufficient test equipment and the knowledge to use it to fill in 17th edition Electrical Installation Certificate?
Imho the only way to DIY this kind of work is to get in touch with a local electrician registered for partP work and see if he will do it with you, ie you run cables cut chases/boxes etc he oversees the work and signs for it on a cert. bearing in mind he will be taking responsibility as if he had done the whole job himself!

regards Sparx
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Postby ericmark » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:33 pm

Sparx is correct to buy the test kit costs around £750 and although you may be able to hire normally this is no good if house is lived in as you will need to test each bit as completed.

Before 2004 no one really bothered in following all the regulations but today it's a whole different story and as well as Part P you have all the other parts of building regulations.

Socket height, Bathroom fans, types of light fittings are all now checked under J, M and L as well as Part P.

When it is said you can still DIY what they really mean is an electrician who is employed either employed so he is unable to sign his own Part P or retired can still do the work under council supervision. In other words he has City and Guilds 2391 and 2382 but not registered under Part P. The book says the council can do all the testing which is true but only to verify your figures they do not issue an installation certificate.

And the rules have changed that much since 2000. In 2001 a completely new regulation book was issued and in 2004 Part P was started and in 2008 yet another regulation book was issued. Add to that conservation of energy Part L and ventilation Part F and combustible appliances Part J it has become silly. For example just fitting of a fan in a bathroom comes under P, L, F, and J where it must not be able to cause a depression and draw in flue fumes, it has to get rid of so many cubic meters every minute and must not cool down the house and has to be RCD protected.

If the LABC knew all the regs that would not be so bad but I had a right argument where he said the thermostat was mounted too low and I had to point out how with my mother in a wheel chair she could not use it when at the 1200mm to 1400mm required so it can be read by partly blind people. He did back down. But because I could quote rules as well as him and I knew that rule was commercial not domestic.

Yes OK do the re-wire but do it with eyes open and realise that it will not be plane sailing. You can down load at the Part regulations FOC so start with that. Part P doc has sample installation cert look at it and see if you think you could fill it in?
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Postby marconii » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:48 pm

[quote="rob.c"]hi, i wish to rewire my sisters old house as we are renovating it from top to toe. i have read alot about 17th edition but am confused as to who i should advise of my impending work. the old house has a combination of old rubber coated,braided waxed and both old red/black/green,yellow and new harmonised brown/blue/green and yellow wires. there is a double pole switch before the consumer unit so all but the main incoming tails from the overhead feed from the supplier could be isolated. i wish to rewire the whole house myself. i completed a full plumbing course c&g,nvq 1,2,3 , advanced craft 1+2, plus electric course connected with the plumbing qualifications at the time but all these have lapsed since i completed them back in the 80's. i feel i have the knowledge and understanding to complete this task including outside work but need to know if i am allowed to do it myself and get it tested then signed off with help from my local building authority?? or do you have to be a fully 17th edition qualified electrician to carry out the proposed work?? can anyone advise or point me in the right direction please :D[/quote]


hi im mark......electrician since 1981...

DO NOT attempt to rewire any property.....unless you live in Scotland....

As of January 2005, part p of the wiring regs came into force, making it a criminal offence, to do anything other than minor tasks, ie..changing a socket/ very small insignificant works....

you cannot..do the work yourself and then get an electrician to sign your work off!!......its against part p regs!!
building control, WILL, SIGN YOUR WORK OFF.....BUT AT A COST.....however, that seems to vary throughout the country, its still a grey area, and since the government decided to get involved the whole part p legislation seems not be fully understood throughout england and wales completely....

put simply.......GET A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN....who is part p registered.....

personally, i was and am, annoyed at the government....the inference being that electricians prior to this new legislation coming into force, were not experienced whatsoever....and needed to sit an unnecessary test(part p)in order to become"competant"...another example of political madness......having said that....electricity takes many lives, if underestimated....so, tongue in cheek, it can only be a good thing..

GET A SPARKY IN.!!!

MARK..
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Postby dave876 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:32 am

Hi Mark,

Interesting what you say. I am in a similar situation to the OP (though without the training) but I feel I would be sufficiently competent to re-wire a house with just a few queries at present (I would have been looking to get this knowledge before starting the job, and / or getting someone in to do the tricky bits!).

*soapbox start*
One thing I feel is missing in all this regulation is some common sense. Yes, electrics do cause fires, or kill people. But how much of that is the fixed wiring, and how much of that is faulty appliances? Or poor use of the fixed wiring such as overloaded sockets?
There is also an inconsistency in what can and can't be done. I have had to persuade work colleagues away from doing unsafe work such as a double socket spur on 1mm cable buried in a wall (diagonally), or tapping into a lighting circuit for a socket. Those that do not care (or do not know better), will continue to do anything they like anyway. To me, this is just a restriction on those that could otherwise undertake the majority of work safely, and who know their limits. If you don't know those limits, then having to follow the regulations isn't going to make a difference.
*soapbox end* :)

Anyway - I guess the dilemma is twofold. Firstly - to save some money with a DIY installation (not to save money by cutting corners etc). but at the same time - the need to be sure that there will be no repurcusions if I tried to sell in say 10 years time. Do you have any suggestion on how this can be achieved? In my case, I would be needing to get the work done over a period of time, starting with a new consumer unit and waiting for an extension to get achitects plans, planning permission and built (2 years?), so do you have any suggestions on the best way to achieve this?

Thanks,
David.
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Postby moggy1968 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:22 pm

my understanding is part P came in because of the death of an MPs familly member. had it been anyone else probably no one would have bothered.
I agree that the real idiots will carry on regardless, however, I don't agree that's a justification to do nothing. I see real horrors all the time done by people who believed they knew what they were doing.
Your biggest problem will be getting the work tested and registered.
your best bet is to try for a half way house where you do some of the work yourself under the guidence of a registered spark and he does the rest. that will save some money, ensure compliance, and you may even learn a few things!!
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