URGENT FOR LADAMAN348


Postby TOPSPARK » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:51 pm

LADAMAN348 IN RESPONSE TO YOUR REPLY ABOUT BREAKING INTO A SHOWER CIRCUIT .I would like to know wether or not you are a qualified spark and who you are registered with because your advice was not only shocking and completely wrong if done it could result in serious problems and possible electric shock.Myself as a qualified spark and also having c+g2391 test and inspection qualifications would suggest you go and get your wiring regs qualification and learn how to install circuits properly and safely.And with your advice make sure you know what you are talking about as not to put peoples lives in danger.In guidance note 1 it is pointed out about selection and erection of equipment and when circuits using high power are designated as single use circuits and not to be broken into.

regards
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Postby ericmark » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:18 pm

Topspark I went to look at Ladaman348 post and although I would agree to advise a DIYer to use the shower cable in that way is likely to result in a botch up, never the less to split a cable in a proper enclosure would not really cause any danger, other than the 13 amp socket could be considered as not being able to take cable of that size. but MK Logic range in Tech Spec give terminal capacity as 3 x 2.5mm² or 3 x 4mm² or 2 x 6mm² so since they are designed to take 6mm² cable and rated as 13 amp per socket outlet with no stated limit as to supply current. If a 10mm² cable was involved then there could be a problem as the manufacturer recommendations are only for 6mm² so 134.1.1 would be breached
Ladaman348 says nothing about 40 amp connectors as sparkydude seems to imply. Ladaman348 said “connector box” i.e. an enclosure or more likely as he refers to “hermetic connections” a cable joint box. 314.2 does refer to separate circuits but he did take account of the problems which could arise. Although I have looked in the red book I can’t really find any regulation which would be broken.
If you want to dress down another spark at least have the respect and quote exactly what regulation he would have broken. Not interested in any recommendation in code of practice or guide to 17th Edition you do need either to give the BS7671:2008 reference number which you feel Ladaman348 has broken or apologise. What you have written can only be regarded as abuse, unless you support it with the regulation numbers.
Eric
ericmark

Postby TOPSPARK » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:40 pm

TO ERICMARK
With regard to your comment on regulation numbers with regards to the shower circuit and cutting into it to supply sockets in attic.This what I am posting comes directly from BS7671 Guidance Note 1 selection and erection Pg 149 section e.

The final circuit must supply the full load of the electric shower.No diversity is allowable on the final circuit.Electric showers are usually in the range of 6kW to 10kW.

The final circuit supplies a self-contained electric shower unit,and should be an individual circuit.a separate local switch may also be installed
Supplementary equipotential bonding is required in accordance with Regulations601-04-01 and where applicable 601-04-02.

I hope you can see a shower circuit is an individual circuit with nothing else added or can be added.

regards
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Postby ericmark » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:02 pm

Page 149 of current BS7671:2008 refers to transformers and convertors, fire risk due to short circuit etc and does not relate to anything to do with supplies to a shower.
601-04-01 and 601-04-02 have been replaced with 701.415.2 and does not say anything which could affect the use of the shower supply for other uses.
I got caught out with position of cooker isolators and found that the distance regulation was 14th or 15th edition and in 17th there is nothing about cookers only some general guidance.
I would still not fit a cooker isolator above the cooker itself, and I would not use a shower or immersion heater supply cable or any other fixed appliance cable to also supply other items, but I can’t find a regulation that says one should not, and cooker supplies often have 13 amp sockets built into the isolator, so I would not condemn others who do supply multi items from same supply. At least until I can quote the current regulation stopping them.
Eric
ericmark

Postby sparkydude » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:37 am

Please read topsparks post again ericmark as it says page 149 in the guidance notes relating to selection and erection of equipment NOT the regs book directly. I stand by my advice and i think you will find the OP said 40A connection. Well in my experience the normal DIYER will go to B+Q look for a junction box to take 40A Not find one and end up using the nearest thing a bit of 30A choc block will do the job fine. As for using one of the proprietary choc boxes, they are fine as long as you use the correct rated block, which i this case would be 60A , too big to fit in the box, and the cord grips on those boxes are totally innadequate for anything bigger than a 2.5 so do not meet the regulations for strain relief of the connections. I stand by my advice and suggest you read peoples posts more thoroughly before jumping on them

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Postby ericmark » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:18 am

Thank you sparkydude I had not realised the guidance notes had been re-released I suppose I must order up a set. I had seen guide to 17th edition has now been released.
I agree with you that it was inappropriate to suggest that a DIY person should under take this work and your comments were appropriate to what had been said.
But we are all trying to help and what LADAMAN348 said although silly was not wrong he did refer to "hermetic connections" and to me that's a proper cable joint.
I will agree many sparks borrow my 120mm crimp pliers as they have non of their own and the chances of any DIY person doing this is slim and really hydraulic crimpers would be required. And to have added a post to inform the DIY man that the equipment required to make this joint would cost around £80 to hire and was not really an option would have been fair. But comments like “I would like to know wether or not you are a qualified spark” were uncalled for and to be honest who but a qualified spark would have worked with cold cast joints? And as to “I stand by my advice and suggest you read peoples posts more thoroughly before jumping on them” Sorry I must apologise if you feel I was having a go at you I was not your comments were very much in line with my own thoughts but I do feel Topspark was “jumping on” Ladaman348 had Topspark commented as you did in the original post that this was bad advise then that would have been excusable but a separate post with the whole purpose of “jumping on” Ladaman348 to my mine is well out of order especially considering that when tattled he has only been able to quote out of date and inappropriate regulations. I have made mistakes and Sparkx has pointed them out in a nice gentlemen fashion which is how it should be. There is no need for what a consider as an abusive post.
Eric
ericmark

Postby BLAKEY1963 » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:46 pm

[quote="ericmark"]Thank you sparkydude I had not realised the guidance notes had been re-released I suppose I must order up a set. I had seen guide to 17th edition has now been released.
I agree with you that it was inappropriate to suggest that a DIY person should under take this work and your comments were appropriate to what had been said.
But we are all trying to help and what LADAMAN348 said although silly was not wrong he did refer to "hermetic connections" and to me that's a proper cable joint.
I will agree many sparks borrow my 120mm crimp pliers as they have non of their own and the chances of any DIY person doing this is slim and really hydraulic crimpers would be required. And to have added a post to inform the DIY man that the equipment required to make this joint would cost around £80 to hire and was not really an option would have been fair. But comments like “I would like to know wether or not you are a qualified spark” were uncalled for and to be honest who but a qualified spark would have worked with cold cast joints? And as to “I stand by my advice and suggest you read peoples posts more thoroughly before jumping on them” Sorry I must apologise if you feel I was having a go at you I was not your comments were very much in line with my own thoughts but I do feel Topspark was “jumping on” Ladaman348 had Topspark commented as you did in the original post that this was bad advise then that would have been excusable but a separate post with the whole purpose of “jumping on” Ladaman348 to my mine is well out of order especially considering that when tattled he has only been able to quote out of date and inappropriate regulations. I have made mistakes and Sparkx has pointed them out in a nice gentlemen fashion which is how it should be. There is no need for what a consider as an abusive post.
Eric[/quote]

ERICMARK

Good day 2 u kind sir hope u r well , its BLAKEY1963.
I have just caught up with this post as a add on from
saerz post about breaking into a shower cable for
two sockets in a loft. I want 2 add a few comments.
AS u could see i responded to the post along with topspark.
my post appeared first , untill topsparks was moderated.
saezr i think was ok with our advice and safely
Acknowledges to run a new circuit.
THE gentleman Mephistico and Sparkydude along with
Topspark and now myslef ( I AM LOOKING AT GN1 AS I
WRITE ) acknowledge that the shower circuit is and
should ideally be kept as a dedicated separate circuit .
Ladaman 348 s post was looked at and if topspark ,
mephistico , sparkydude and i can be of use to saezr
and indeed the gentleman Ladaman 348
our info has come from guidance note 1 which is one
of the publications , part p registered sparks quote
from as well as guidance note 3 ,7 , and BS 7671 : 2008
AND osg.
Looking at topsparks background , he is part p registered
with the E.C.A ( SAME AS OUR EXCELLENT ADVISER SPARX)
I as u know am part p registered with N.I.C.E.I.C.
I have seen persons who have sadly lost thier lives due to
electrical fires due 2 unapropiate wiring installation.
I am sure eric u as well as topspark, and myslef have seen
awful examples of wiring which have had to be condemmed
to protect the safety of the owner .
To conclude i know u thought topsparks advice might
possibly b concieved as abuse , but as qualified part
P contracters , we r committed 2 the saftey of the
general public , and have 2 comment or act in thier best
intrests , and in this case , i think topspark did not want
to see a tragic situation coming out of that post.
As i have said 2 u in another of your posts , giving advice
is about interpretation , and we only do it for the safety
of the consumer. u r a very good source of information
Eric and i learn from u on a daily basis , i hope u
continue 2 contribute , but i think topspark was only
acting on the safety of the consumer (Person who made
the post ).

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Postby ericmark » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:26 pm

It seems between us we have frightened LADAMAN348 away which does seem a pity as he was only trying to help like the rest of us.
I hope Topspark will continue to help and we will not lose him too.
Not the way I wanted things to go but seems I have been unsuccessful in calming the waters. Maybe its time that I also hang up my pen and retire.
73 Eric
ericmark

Postby BLAKEY1963 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:41 am

[quote="ericmark"]It seems between us we have frightened LADAMAN348 away which does seem a pity as he was only trying to help like the rest of us.
I hope Topspark will continue to help and we will not lose him too.
Not the way I wanted things to go but seems I have been unsuccessful in calming the waters. Maybe its time that I also hang up my pen and retire.
73 Eric[/quote]

ERICMARK

Its blakey 1963 . how r u kind sir hope ur well.
Electrical engineers r worth thier weight in gold, u
r a source of valueble information on this website
not only your degree but your experience.
If u retire from the site that could only b your
your own decicsion , but u would be missed dearly.
I APPEAL 2 u to continue 2 offer your guidance on
this site , i am only 45 , N.I.C.E.I.C registered
but still learning everyday i come on this site.
u have said things i didnt know , i have personally
gained from your experience .
Please reconsider and tell me u will continue to contribute !

NB ; it is never easy 2 work out what advice 2 give on
this site and we learn as we go , enventually if
we all stay here , we could all benifit immensly.

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Postby TOPSPARK » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:53 pm

Ericmark Topspark here i am not leaving and i hope you are not leaving either as Blakey1963 says you are a valuable source of information and we can only interpret and give answers and advice based on how the questions in the posts are asked. My only concern is for us sparks and engineers out there who have to see all kinds of electrical work put together by the DIY'ER. Above all else we as qualified tradesmen must first and foremost make sure the general public are safe and there is no risk of them being electrocuted or very seriously injured. I HOPE YOU DECIDE TO CARRY ON ADVISING AND GIVING MUCH NEEDED INFO TO THE DIY'ER AND THE OTHERS WHO HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE BUT ARE NOT FULLY AWARE OF PROCEDURES
Best Regards
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Postby ericmark » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:38 pm

Thank you for such a glowing testimonial I could not really give up in light of that.
Thanks Eric
ericmark

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