Wiring in stud partition behind a shower


Postby bobmoore » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:51 pm

I'm building a shower enclosure with stud partition.
I plan to have a ring main socket and lighting switches on the other side of the partition shower wall.
Are there any regulations governing this?
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Postby kbrownie » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:02 pm

Yes
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Postby bobmoore » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:59 pm

Can you let me know where I can access the regs?

Thanks
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Postby bobmoore » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:00 pm

Can you let me know where I can acess the regs?

Thanks
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Postby ericmark » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:51 am

There are two types of regs Part P is here Google "planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/buildingregs/technicalguidance/bcelectricalsafetypartp/bcapproveddocuments12" which when you read refers to BS7671 and they cost around £65.
Some parts of the regs are reproduced on web sites including this one but you have to be careful on dates as June 2008 there were big changes and many web sites are not dated.
Now all sockets under 20A need RCD protection (Except for 20VA shaver sockets) also any cables buried less than 50mm or in wall or where the wall is metallic in some form need RCD protection unless using one of the special cables like Ali-tube.
It goes on and on. The cheap option is likely a copy of the "On Site Guide" I have not tried libraries they were classed as reference books and one could not remove and since the exam requires you to have the book with you only option was to buy.
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Postby kbrownie » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:34 pm

[quote="bobmoore"]Can you let me know where I can acess the regs?

Thanks[/quote]

You need to comply to both BS761:2008 and Part P of building regs.
Info you need are in these books but wont be cheap.
Google "amazon.co.uk/IEE-Wiring-Regulations-17th-7671/dp/0863418449/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263558227&sr=8-1"

Google "amazon.co.uk/IEE-site-Guide-7671-Regulations/dp/0863418546/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263558227&sr=8-2"

Google "amazon.co.uk/Electricians-Guide-Building-Regulations-Wiring/dp/0863418627/ref=cm_lmf_tit_3_rsrsrs0"

When installing electric in or around a shower there is dedicate zones where electrical equipment needs to be specialised or is not allowed to be.
Yopu may need to inform (notify) building controls if you are not a member of a scheme provider (I don't think you are, as you would not be asking the ques).
If it is not notifiable work, your installation will need to be inspected and test result taken to prove that the system is safe, anyway.
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Postby ericmark » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:48 pm

I note you said "other side of the partition shower wall" so I have assumed the cables and other items do not go into the shower room. Any fixed partition which either reaches the ceiling or over 2.25 meters high is a barrier to shower rules so from what you have said I have assumed (Maybe incorrect?) that it has nothing to do with a shower being the other side of the wall.
However stud walls have attracted some extra rules of late due to the problem of people drilling through hidden cables and also hidden cables making contact with internal metalwork and faults being transmitted from one area to another.

The new rules mean either special cable or RCD protection is required. 50mm deep from both sides means the stud wall would need to be over 100mm thick and the cable would need to run down centre to escape requiring protection.

The rules on sockets have also changed and all sockets over 20A not just those used outside now need RCD protection. (30ma) This leaves a problem when extending existing as although you don't need to upgrade existing anything new needs to comply.

Theory is great and to wire a new socket in Ali-tube cable and for the new socket to be a RCD socket would comply. However when one goes into B&Q and ask for Ali-tube cable to BS 8436 they tend to look at one with a blank expression. Even the whole sale outlets will only order up a full role and there seems to be no way to buy 5 meters of the stuff. OK you could use SWA to BS 6346 but that is rather over kill.

As a result often one has to use RCD FCU at origin of new extension and where a lot of work is being done often changing the MCB to a RCBO is easy way out. However once you start to alter items inside the consumer unit Part P raises it's ugly head and either you pay the LABC their £100+ for passing go or you need to employ an electrician who can self certify his work.

Even where the job looks very simple for example change a single socket to a twin if you follow regulations then you need to complete a minor works certificate and this in turn requires you to enter information like "Earth fault loop impedance", Insulation resistance" and "RCD tripping time in milliseconds". This will normally need all three test meters although you may be able to calculate the "Earth fault loop impedance" however to buy the test gear will cost around £750. You may be able to hire. But using a Earth loop impedance tester can result in dangerous voltages and the 500 volt used with the insulation tester is not something to play with.

Do remember you asked about regulations and yes I know many DIY people don't follow them but you asked.

Proving dead when working on items is also a problem if followed to the letter. Three stages. One prove the tester works and tester must be of type which can't be switched off or wrong range selected. Then test item. Then (normally with a proving unit) re-test the tester. I am not saying again everyone follows the rules but not everyone keeps to 30 mph speed limit either.

On new houses there is also regulations on socket heights, use of discharge (energy saving) lighting, extractor fans, and a host of other regulations. Older houses may have listing problems and permission from archaeologist may be required. The list goes on.

If you ask a more down to earth question maybe we can give a more down to earth answer.

This forum checks all our answers first before publishing so is slow but rubbish is removed. It does not officially allow links although they let some through and there is no provision for pictures. I like it as any mistakes are not my responsibility it is checked. Other forums do allow pictures and do allow links but if you asked question like you have worded hear you are likely to also get abuse.

However you can draw out what you want to do and they may help you where pictures can replace a 1000 words.

Nearly all have some area like "Projects" on this forum where standard information is given. And step one is to read projects so you can ask questions which are restricted to a smaller area and therefore likely to get better response.

Your questions answer would span the 4 years apprenticeship and account to weeks of lecture time. Hence I have only scratched the surface.
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Postby bobmoore » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:03 pm

Thanks for your reply.
The only reason I asked about regulations was to ensure that the

installation will be signed off by a building inspector at the end of the

work.

This work is part of renovations and we had a new distribution box

installed which has 30mA RCD's.
As there is more wiring to be carried out I would need a qualified

electrician to provide a certificate when the work is completed. So there

would not be any additional expense.

The wiring in the partition will not enter the shower enclosure but the

partition does go to the ceiling.
The wiring in the partition consists of a single ring main socket and a

light switch.
To my knowledge electric shower wiring does not require armoured cable but

just a fast acting RCD, so I assumed that this wiring would be permitted.

To summerise :-

Would it be sufficient to ensure that a 30mA RCD is used as protection,

without the need for special cable?

The planning permission for the renovations was granted in December 2006.

Does that mean that I only need to adhere to the regulations in force at

that time?

Thanks for your help

Bob Moore
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Postby kbrownie » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:34 am

Protect cables off the RCD, then no need to use mechanically protected cable.
You said building controls are over seeing the build, so why do you need a sparks to sign the electrics of?f building controls should do this, that's what you've paid them to do.
Your in a position that the regulations have changed since your approval.
I personally would now do everything to the new 17th edtion, after all you have RCD protection so wont be difficult.
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Postby moggy1968 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:11 pm

you'll be lucky to get a spark to sign off your work. third party verification is not permitted by the providers. Also he is signing to say it conforms, but how does he know if he didn't do the work?
Building control will want to look at the whole project. if, for example you split the project into 3 parts, doing each in turn and getting each inspected in turn they may well charge you three times!
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