making wire ends safe before plastering over? Ask questions and find answers to many subjects relating to electrics and electrical work

[electricnovice]

hi there, i've isolated my electric supply from the main junction box,romoved a wall light,which now leaves me my live,neutral and earth coming out of the wall into a simple connecting block.

all i need to know is what is the best way to make this end safe before i push it back into the wall and plaster over as i don't want to replace the
light?

it will still be a live end at times as there is another light on the other wall that comes off the same switch, which i am leaving up.

thanks.

[ericmark]

Very simple. You don't.
Wires are permitted in walls in zones which are defined by the routes to and from an electrical item. If that item becomes no longer visible the safe zone also ceases to exist so wires must be removed.
If you go to projects and follow links to Part P and down load the PDF on page 37 it shows picture of zones and explains them a little better.
Eric

[electricnovice]

hi eric

thanks very much for the quick reply. looks like my jobs not as straight forward as i hoped, but thats usually the way of it!!think i'll have to do a bit more research with a view to removing the redundant wiring.

thanks for the help
mark.

[jon_spark]

..............or just put some electrical tape around each conductor and have done with it, then plaster away mate. it'll be completely safe this way.

[ericmark]

jon_spark I am sure the zone rules were not made just to make life hard and great thought has gone into the health and safety implementations. People have nailed and drilled through cables even when they are in the permitted zones which is why now all cables buried less than 50mm need either an earthed metallic sheave to a BS standard or RCD protection.
To tell anyone it is completely safe to ignore safety regulations is fool hardly to say the least.
In spite on the cables in my house following the permitted routes horizontally from the light switch and having 30ma earth leakage trips on all circuits I still was knocked to the floor when I put a hack saw blade through the cable when I had expected the cable to run vertical and to have capping on it when fitting water supply to fridge.
And I would not think many houses have as yet got earth leakage on lighting circuits I was lucky.
All I hope is you are not an electrician and that in future you will consider more what you are saying as with a user name with spark in it people are likely to think that is your trade.
Eric

[electricnovice]

hi there, thanks to jon and eric for the replies.

when i 1st posted the qustion,what i was hoping for, was a reply like the one i recieved from jon saying to tape it up, plaster over it and that would be safe enough.

eric pointed me in the direction of safe zones and the fact that the wire should be removed if it doesn't lead to an appliance.

i took the easy option i'm afraid.....i cut the wires to different lenghts,insulating taped each wire individuallly and then insulating taped all the wires together.then i attached a bit of string to the wire end and pushed it into the wall.i managed to secure this bit of sting within reach of the hole and then i plastered over! i've measured the exact distance to where the hole was,so if i need to retrieve this end(which i probably will when my girlfriend decides she wants a new light there) i know where it is.my house is 8 years old now and i do have RCD protection.

I'm actually away out of the country for a month on work from today so i won't be able to see any replies untill i get home.I would still very much appreciate anyones opinion if they think this is ok or if i've just been a complete cowboy!!because i could still remove the wire.Thanks also again to eric for taking the time to reply to my question and i hope i've not caused offence by going for the easy option.

cheers
mark

[BLAKEY1963]

[quote="ericmark"]jon_spark I am sure the zone rules were not made just to make life hard and great thought has gone into the health and safety implementations. People have nailed and drilled through cables even when they are in the permitted zones which is why now all cables buried less than 50mm need either an earthed metallic sheave to a BS standard or RCD protection.
To tell anyone it is completely safe to ignore safety regulations is fool hardly to say the least.
In spite on the cables in my house following the permitted routes horizontally from the light switch and having 30ma earth leakage trips on all circuits I still was knocked to the floor when I put a hack saw blade through the cable when I had expected the cable to run vertical and to have capping on it when fitting water supply to fridge.
And I would not think many houses have as yet got earth leakage on lighting circuits I was lucky.
All I hope is you are not an electrician and that in future you will consider more what you are saying as with a user name with spark in it people are likely to think that is your trade.
Eric[/quote]

JON SPARK
I have to agree with ericmark , safety is paramount.
The cables must be properly isolated from the approppiate
circuit , and removed.
taping up and just burylng them is not the way to do it.
I deal with householders on a regular basis who have gone
through a cable , just buried in this manner , and some are
lucky to be alive .
Of course as AN NICIIC contracter i am just offering safe
advice and i hope Electricnovice does it the right way.

BLAKEY1963

[TOPSPARK]

On the question of safety I would like to direct jonspark and electricnovice to an earlier post about cutting into a shower circuit and from the responses i hope they would both find some enlightenment on the subject of safety and not be so foolhardy in the future.The regulations are there for a reason and that is to help prevent electric shock or at worst case scenario electrocution
regards
Topspark

[kuzz]

As you know the cables are there the fact of the matter is there is no immediate danger.
However if you were a competent person you would have very little problem isolating these supplies, so without reading to much in to the name you have given yourself, and without trying to be insulting you are incompetent.
I think it would be fair to say even if you never move the chances are the house will outlast you or i, buildings tend to. So the fact is there is a real danger your incompetence at some point in the future could end up hurting somebody. I hope your not OK with that and don't take shortcuts. by all means leave the cables in the wall for future use. but they must not be connected to supply.

[deadboyfriend]

i was presented with this same problem a few weeks ago. I didn't fancy ripping up the wall to get the wire out so o taped it up...but...i also lifted some floorboards up upstairs found the wire in the cirtuit and cut the offending wires out of the circuit and linked the circuit back up again with a junction box. The wires are safe but still there if i need them again in the future.

It's more work than just taping them up and less than repairing the wall. I'm not an expert in these things and wouldn't qualify as a competent person, but with everything i do on my house i always bear in mind that one day someone else is going to have to try and figure out my handywork. But more likley it's going to be me in the next few years having forgotten what wires run where etc etc.

[jTeez]

...how about some food for thought...

1. What is the thickness of the wall... If the greater than 50mm from either surface it's ok, where ever it is...right?
2. If the cable is in a stud/hollow partition wall, as it sounds, and is dropped to the ground, it's safe, right? (safe zone's run along all corners)
3. Consider disconnecting the cable at the switch end and taping it up at that end, that way the whole wire will no longer be live....

Good luck...

[ericmark]

When my house was built 1980 I walked around it many times and I know cable routes as a result. As we have been in from new I have installed all extras with the exception of kitchen extension which was done while I was working away.

This did catch me out. I had expected the two way lights to have been wired up and down the walls. When fitting a water supply to the fridge I found they ran horizontal which although permitted I had not expected and as a result I hit the cables.

When we had a water leak and ceiling was replaced I looked to amazement at a bunch of cables exposed. I can't remember fitting them. Maybe it was my son!

My house has all on RCD protection but that does not stop one getting a nasty shock when one finds unexpected live cables. So that leaves one with just three options.
1) Remove the cable.
2) Make cable dead.
3) Terminate into something. For example a clock output or even just a socket blanking plate.
There is a socket behind a radiator in my house can't use it but it remains one to show there are cables and two so if radiator replaced with Myson type there is power for it.

[ianp5uk]

To be legal you need to remove the wiring especially if it is chased in. Otherwise the next house owner will not have any idea there's a live wire under the wall and potentially drill, cut or nail into it. Capping it off properly and plastering over is safe enough for you only, provided you remember it's there, but it's not legal.

Luckily modern trip systems are quite sensitive.

[ericmark]

[quote="ianp5uk"]To be legal you need to remove the wiring especially if it is chased in. Otherwise the next house owner will not have any idea there's a live wire under the wall and potentially drill, cut or nail into it. Capping it off properly and plastering over is safe enough for you only, provided you remember it's there, but it's not legal.

Luckily modern trip systems are quite sensitive.[/quote]
I agree the cables should be removed, but BS7671 is not law, although it can be used in a court of law.

Just had my dads house rewired, working out what is old and what is new is not easy, they were told to remove old, but it has not happened where the cable is buried in a wall.

All new should be brown blue and old red black but can't rely on that, so yes best way is remove second best make dead. But neither are legal requirements.

The law simply says the house should be safe, if some one gets a shock then clearly it was not safe, but if you can show you did all reasonable steps to ensure it is safe. i.e. follow BS7671 then unlikely a court will find you guilty.

[kbrownie]

To be legal, These cables should be isolated, dead, not live!
Forget BS7671, go straight to building regulations, which is a statuary document!
Although this event was undertaken sometime ago, it was illegal then, as it is now!