Cutting opening for fire door in garage wall


Postby frostysnowman » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:30 pm

I'm going throigh building control notice procedure to install a new internal door from the house into the garage, I realise this has to be all to 30 mins fire resistance. I've has a few builders come round to look and price the job but not one of them (even the FMB's) seem to know what the rules are re cutting the opening in the corner of the garage through a single skin brick wall that finishes at 1st floor level and is not supoorting joists or anything else above.
The single skin wall I want to put a door in is the end wall of the garage that is adjacent to the internal side (stair) wall which is also single skin brick/block that goes up into the loft and is of course structural.
How far back from the internal corner can a door opening be cut? are there any strict rules here as the new doorway presumably doesn't require a lintel if all the bricks are cut out and a frame above door is built in and plater boarded over.
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Postby ALDA » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:52 pm

F,

I'M ASSUMING FLAT GARAGE ROOF NO BRICKWORK ABOVE NEW OPENING AND THAT YOU REQUIRE THE DOOR TO BE IN CORNER?

IF GARAGE WALL IS TIED INTO STRUCTUAL WALL TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR GARAGE WALL, THEN MAKING A OPENING HERE (IN CORNER) WOULD REQUIRE THAT A SUPPORT PILLAR/BUTTRESS BE BUILT INTO THE NEW OPENING.

IF THE WHOLE GARAGE IS OF SINGLE BRICK CONSTRUCTION, THERE WILL BE SEVERAL OF THESE PILLAR/BUTTRESS AT INTERVALS IN THE WALL CONSTRUCTION ALREADY.

ARE YOU WORKING FROM PLANS AND/OR ARCHITECHT. (CONSULT BOTH)

CAN'T SEE THERE BEING A PROBLEM WITH BUILD CONTROL BUT WOULD ADVISE SOUNDING THEM OUT BEFORE YOU PROCEED.

REGARDS,

ALDA.
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Postby frostysnowman » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:21 am

Garage is internal with a bedroom above at 1st floor level and a toilet at end at ground level. The garage is 900mm lower than house ground floor as house is built on a slope.
It is the internal left end garage wall that I want to cut opening into.
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Postby ALDA » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:23 pm

F,

I'M HAVING TROUBLE GETTING MY HEAD ROUND YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE GARAGE LAYOUT AND EXACTLY WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THE WALL IS.

YOU DIDN'T SAY WHETHER THE WALL IS TIED IN TO THE STAIR WALL!!!

YOU SAY THE WALL IN QUESTION IS BELOW A BEDROOM YET DOESN'T SUPPORT ANY OF THAT STRUCTURE!!!

IS THERE A GAP BETWEEN THE TOP OF THE WALL AND THE UNDERSIDE OF THE BEDROOM FLOOR JOISTS AND IS THE WALL TIED IN TO THE STRUCTURAL WALL??

WHAT IS/WILL BE ON EITHER SIDE OF WALL?

I CAN'T GIVE AN OPINION UNLESS THESE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED.

A.
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Postby frostysnowman » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:41 am

This should help you understand. There are no loads on this wall from the bedroom above as all loads are taken by joists running across width of garage from stairwell to outer wall.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/f ... gewall.jpg
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Postby ALDA » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:06 am

F'

IN MY OPINION ONLY, THE FIRST REPLY I GAVE YOU STILL STANDS.

AS YOU REPEATEDLY FAIL TO SAY WHETHER WALL IS TIED IN AND IS UP AGAINST UNDERSIDE OF BEDROOM FLOOR, I CAN'T COMMENT FURTHER.

ALDA.
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Postby frostysnowman » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:51 pm

Wall was built as part of main house walls, yes its tied into left stairwell wall to form a corner and also into outside wall to form a T.
There is no load on this wall, I keep telling you, its simply the end of the garage with a toilet room on other side. Ignore the bedroon above as the joists that support this floor are sat in the left and right hand walls.
I trust that you can now make an informed decision..
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Postby ALDA » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:55 pm

PROBABLY NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR!

NOW "I KNOW" WHAT THE BUILDERS YOU HAVE HAD IN TO LOOK AT AND WHY THEY WILL BE WARY OF GIVING AN OPINION/ANSWER.

THE BEST ADVICE I CAN NOW GIVE IS TO CONSULT A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER AS TO WHETHER THIS IS OK OR NOT.

REMOVING THE "TIE IN" BETWEEN END GARAGE WALL (ONE OF TWO OR THREE) AND STRUCTURAL STAIRWELL WALL "MAY" COMPROMISE THE SUPPORT GIVEN TO THE SINGLE SKIN STRUCTURAL WALL. (MIGHT BELLY OUT).

AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID, AN ADDITIONAL FORM OF SUPPORT MIGHT WELL BE REQUIRED IF AN OPENING IS MADE ANYWHERE IN THIS WALL AND LINTLE AND BRICKWORK MAY HAVE TO BE TIED IN TO ALLOW SUCH AN OPENING.

BRICKWORK SHOULD EXTEND RIGHT UP TO UNDERSIDE OF FLOORING REGARDLESS AS TO WHETHER IT IS SUPPORT TO FLOOR OR NOT.
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Postby frostysnowman » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:16 am

OK, now I need to know what your qualifications are???
From the stance you have taken I was fully expecting you to be an engineer as you come across so professional with your 'knowt it all' attitude.
Do everyone a favour in future and let then know from the beginning that you don't realy know and are just guessing, it would save a lot of time.
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Postby ALDA » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:40 pm

F,

YOU ARE THE ONE LOOKING FOR ANSWERS HERE.

THIS IS AN OPEN FORUM AND AS SUCH ATTRACTS ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

I DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY MY CREDENTIALS TO ACTIVELY AND FREELY PARTICIPATE AND SHARE MY WEALTH OF EXPERIENCE AND OFFER AN OPINION TO OTHER USERS MANY OF WHICH HAVE GRATFULLY TAKEN SOMETHING FROM MY REPLY POSTS AND RESOLVED THERE PARTCULAR PROBLEM.

IF YOU DO NOT GET FROM THE FORUM WHAT YOU REQUIRE THEN SEEK ADVICE DIRECTLY FROM PROFFESIONALS ON THE HIGH STREET.

NO ONE ON THIS FORUM (REMOTE FROM THE PROBLEMS PEOPLE POST)WILL GIVE YOU AN UNEQUIVOCAL ANSWER TO A STRUCTURAL QUESTION FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. (NOTE THE LACK OF REPLY POSTS TO YOUR QUERY).

A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER ON SITE IS ALWAYS THE BEST PERSON TO APPROACH BUT THEN THAT WILL BE A FULL AND FINAL ANSWER AND AN EXPENSIVE ONE TO BOOT.

RESPECT,

ALDA.
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Postby frostysnowman » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:37 am

I quote you "IF GARAGE WALL IS TIED INTO STRUCTUAL WALL TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR GARAGE WALL, THEN MAKING A OPENING HERE (IN CORNER) WOULD REQUIRE THAT A SUPPORT PILLAR/BUTTRESS BE BUILT INTO THE NEW OPENING".

So tell me how you can possibly make a statement such as this if you simply don't know, REALLY HELPFUL !!!
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Postby ALDA » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:32 pm

STANDARD PROCEDURE TO REINFORCE/STABILISE A BRICK WALL THAT IS WEAKENED BY OPENING AND OR UNSTABLE.
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