Electric shower replacement


Postby Moby1 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:17 pm

I've read elswhere about Part P certification, I've been asked to replace an electric shower, if the replacement is the same wattage as the old one, will it need to be certificated or can i just go ahead using exisiting electrics?
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Postby rosebery » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:32 pm

It still needs to be notified under Part P.

Cheers
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Postby kbrownie » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:04 pm

Hi Guys,
This is an area that I find very grey.
Rosebury I now you are very astute regarding buiding controls.
So may I just pour a little petrol on the fire and source your opinions
What Moby intends to do, is it notifiable work?
As I read and it is my understanding and not someone elses judgement!
That fixed equipment is notifiable only if it involves changing the fixed wiring or installing a new circuit within special location and not replacing like for like equipment.
I would never recommend that a diyer or any one without the suitable knowledge would carry out this type of work as safety is the issue, and if the equipment was wrongly installed some pour sole may suffer.
Plus things to consider are like for like, if a higher powered shower was installed it would need a higher rated protective device and that could mean the cable csa increases. Then part p applies!
My opinion is that it is considered as a special location and should be treated so through out and that should include replacing equipment plus all sup bonding
Can of worms?
What do you think?
Have I read it right or am I missing something
Regards
KB
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Postby nitro23456 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:34 pm

If you are competent just get on with it, I replace my own.

As far as I'm aware like for like replacements dont come under part P
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Postby stoneyboy » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:23 pm

Moby1,
There is a difference of opinion regarding Part P.
If you go here to the Heating and Hotwater Industry Council Google "centralheating.co.uk/index/fuseaction/site.articleDetail/con_id/7487"
it clearly states: Part P does not apply to repair,replacement or maintenance work in any area of a property.
or here to the number 10 website Google "number10.gov.uk/Page11727"
Such work includes the addition of power points, lighting points and spurs to an existing circuit (except in kitchens, bathrooms or outdoors where the risk is greater), and any repair, replacement or maintenance work.
Nowhere can I find any directive which states that repair, replacement or maintenance work on an accessory fitted to an existing circuit requires part P approval.
You will however need to carry out tests on the existing circuit so that a minor works certificate can be completed.
end
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Postby Moby1 » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:40 pm

You will however need to carry out tests on the existing circuit so that a minor works certificate can be completed.
end[/quote]



Thanks all, from further reading here and elswhere it would seem that a straight replacement of the shower unit using exisiting power supply may not need to be notified, but what tests need to be done and who can isssue a minor works certificate?
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Postby ban_all_sheds » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:20 pm

What if the present cable was not adequate for the [u]existing[/u] shower? Is he just going to install the new shower and walk away? thinking"nice job it don't leak and it is all sealed nicely"

Is the circuit RCD protected?
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Postby stoneyboy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:24 pm

Moby1,
If you can carry out the tests you can issue a minorworks certificate.
Tests are:
Earth continuity, Polarity, Insulation Resistance, Earth fault Loop Impedance, RCD rated current. I also include operation checks on RCD as if completing an Installation certifcate.
If you have a friendly electrician they can carry out the tests for you.

ban_all_sheds,
Surely this is a question of assessment for the installer, if a piece of equipment has operated for years and it's replaced by an identical piece of equipment, how can the cable be inadequate (no I'm not suggesting a 7kW shower fed by 1.5 T&E should be ignored). Say the cable was installed to comply with the 15th ed, chances are it certainly won't comply with the 17th ed but there is no requirement to upgrade a circuit to the 17th when carrying out repair,replacement or maintenance work.
If the shower has been installed on a dedicated circuit without an RCD then one should be fitted but if a 32A MCB is replaced with a 32A RCBO does this constitute a modification to the fixed wiring?
end
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Postby rosebery » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:36 pm

KB you are correct this is a bit of a grey area. Your bucket of petrol unecessary because my post was deliberately provocative. BAS has already detailed part of my thinking on this subject.

Straightforwardly (the No 10 website is irrelevant - its the Approved Document P we need to look at) the answer is no - it is not notifiable as such but there is a better than even chance that it will become notifiable.

First if the shower needs replacing then it won't be a new one and therefore not installed under the 17th. If it is a new one under warranty the guy that fitted it should come back and replace it.

Second. If current shower not installed under the 17th there is a very real possibility that the circuit is not RCD (of some description) protected. If not then it will have to be for the new shower. That will entail work at the consumer unit which, AFAIC, IS notifiable because adding an RCD ISNT Minor work, a full EIC is required and that is notifiable.

Third. If the current cable (excuse the pun) was never properly rated for the old shower irrespective of whether it worked or not it would be unprofessional (and downright criminal IMHO) to replace the shower with one of equivalent power and hope that it worked. If the cable is incorrectly rated then it has to be replaced. If it has to be replaced then its stll a new circuit and still notifiable.

Fourth. The question of a Minor Works Certificate is frankly not relevant to Part P which is what this thread is about. Having said that though as I said above for adding an RCD a full EIC is required and that is notifiable.

Finally its in a special location.

On balance, therefore, I think that this work, whilst not notifiable on the face of it, on the balance of probablity could very easily become so and in the context of this forum its probably safer to suggest that it IS notifiable as I did in my earlier post.

Cheers
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Postby rosebery » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:37 pm

"Thanks all, from further reading here and elswhere it would seem that a straight replacement of the shower unit using exisiting power supply may not need to be notified, but what tests need to be done and who can isssue a minor works certificate?"

See my post of about 2 minutes ago.

Cheers
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Postby kbrownie » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:23 pm

Hi Rosebury,
Thanks for your response, much appreciated and follow your thoughts and agree with you.
Like I mentioned early after your opinons. Well put may I add.
Moby; the test you would need to make on a minor work cert are as follows.
Countinuity of earth
insulation resistance of line/neutral, line/earth, neutral/earth.
polarity
earth fault loop impedance
rcd operation, for rated residual current and operating time.
function.
This forms comes in 4 parts
description of work, details of installation, essentail test (as mentioned)
declaration.
If your circuit was already RCD protected and protective device and cable size was suitable. This would be the most suitable form to complete.
KB
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Postby ban_all_sheds » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:34 pm

[quote="stoneyboy"]

ban_all_sheds,
Surely this is a question of assessment for the installer, if a piece of equipment has operated for years and it's replaced by an identical piece of equipment, how can the cable be inadequate (no I'm not suggesting a 7kW shower fed by 1.5 T&E should be ignored). Say the cable was installed to comply with the 15th ed, chances are it certainly won't comply with the 17th ed but there is no requirement to upgrade a circuit to the 17th when carrying out repair,replacement or maintenance work.
end[/quote]

So how does he know it was installed corectly in the first place. Has he got an eic for that? he may have, let him say.

So what was size cable do you think you could "get away with " then. cant just suggest that 2.5 is obviously no good, you have to calculate what is safe and correct. is replacing a damaged 32A ring final socket outlet acceptable where the wiring is in VIR, that was installed correctly to the 14th.

So the cable has been dangerously overheating for years and you are prepared to let it continue?
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Postby rosebery » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:21 am

This one has gone a bit quiet.

What do you think now Moby?

Cheers
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Postby kbrownie » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:17 pm

I think what Moby1 was thinking was a straight forward job, has become a little more compliacted than first thought!
But a good post with lots of opinions, I think we got there in the end.
Does some want to summarise? and has Moby1 any coments to add?
KB
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Postby Moby1 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:50 pm

Fascinating feedback, thanks for all comments, I've decided not to take the job on, after reading all the advice here and speaking to a chartered surveyor friend of mine who has advised me not to take it on as he interprets part P as needing someone qualified for this job. I can see that even though it would be a straight swap, i don't know for sure if the circuit is up to standard. Shame, was looking forward to doing this but better stay safe. It has made me consider seriously getting some qualifications in this area, I'm a sole trader in property maintenance, are there any modules I can take or do you have to go the whole hog and become a qualified electrician? Thanks for all help here. Moby1.
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