New spur from existing socket - horizontal cabling?


Postby flipper » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:53 pm

Hi,

I want to add a spur to a downstairs ring in order to add an extra socket around the corner and on the other side of a wall to an existing socket (less than 1m distance). The project section of this website states; "If you bury cables in the wall they must only run vertically, not horizontally." As both the existing and new sockets will be at the same height, am I really to follow this advice? What options do I have?
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Postby BLAKEY1963 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:29 pm

flipper
if your existing cables are vertically run it would be sensible to
follow the same route with new cables.
then you know where your cables are run.
you could ask your electrician to advise.

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Postby sparx » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:49 pm

Hi Flipper,
whilst I fully agree with Blakey (as usual) it is not correct to say horizontal runs not allowed.
It must however be obvious that there are 2 or more outlets in a row which would lead someone of 'reasonable intelligence' to suspect wiring might go direct between them, so in the case in point it wouldn't be apparent if one was out of sight around a corner,
just point this out for sake of completeness,
regards SPARX
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Postby flipper » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:29 pm

Thanks Sparx and Blakey,

I guess what you are saying is that whilst, to a bystander, it is not obvious there is an adjoining cable running horizonatally (as the sockets are at the same level in technically two different rooms), there is no real reason (Part P inc.) why we can't run an spur this way...

IMHO, this is an internal wall (no cavity) and so where is the risk - how is this different from drilling through an internal wall and placing a 4-way on the other side (!! - over-dramatised!) ?

Welcome any more views..
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Postby ericmark » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:21 am

Sparx is quite correct but if you protect the cables then it would be OK. I don't mean a bit of tin I mean a pipe i.e. conduit and of course it would have to be earthed. Not got the book handy but think if it is 1.5 inches from wall surface it is OK i.e. more than a normal screw or nail may go in wall. Diagonal is never allowed but vertical and horizontal is although I have myself hit horizontal wires as one expects vertical drops.

All best Eric
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Postby 333rocky333 » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:36 pm

To the best of my knowledge
How i read part p concerning wiring horizontally, it does not have to be protected horizontally from the accesory right across to the wall or doorframe, even if there is no other accessory in line.

There also needs no protection up to 150mm down from the ceiling
As well as 150 mm from the angle formed by two wall.
Therefore chasing up to the corner drilling through the wall then chasing the other side up to the socket would how i see it conform.

figure 2.3.5 page 28 of the iee quide to building regs
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Postby 333rocky333 » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:08 pm

WHERE IS THE RISK
Do you mean of running the cables along the wall.

If you drilled through the wall to fit a socket back to back like you said, there would be no problem as the cable would be safe, but when running along buried within the wall it could be hit by someone drilling to put up shelves pictures etc.

If run vert or horiz, from an accesory, hopefully this area will be safe, but not always the case.
This is the only reason, for protection of the cable from nails etc

Personally think the 150mm from ceiling most likely to be hit by putting up coving, but this requires no protection.
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Postby juli-juan » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:05 pm

as this work is in a house you must get a sparky to do it as u are modifying a circuit so it must be self certified by a part p electician when will people get the message it is now against the law like gas corgi do u watch rouge traders etc
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Postby ericmark » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:14 pm

Since my first reply I have re-read IEE_Thin_walls.pdf and it seems the position of the socket on the other side of the wall may allow what you intend but there is not enough information from you to give an answer one way or the other.
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Postby Homebuilder » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:47 am

[quote="juli-juan"]as this work is in a house you must get a sparky to do it as u are modifying a circuit so it must be self certified by a part p electician when will people get the message it is now against the law like gas corgi do u watch rouge traders etc[/quote]
Without Malice.

This is a misconception put about by tradesmen and industry watchdogs.
Sparkys are not required to do your electrical installation, however if you DIY then it must be tested and certified by a "sparky" who is part of one of the self certifiying bodies or your local Building Regs Inspector, for which they charge a fee.
BTW what is Rouge Traders? A Pink Version of Rogue Traders.......?LOL!
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Postby thedoctor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:11 am

Homebuilder: Although what you say is correct it is a very bad idea to encourage DIY electrics. If a DIY'er renews a circuit incorrectly and it fails a test he has cost himself a great deal of money putting it right. If the DIY'er feels competent enough to do the job then it is very unlikely he will involve himself in the expense of getting it tested. Either way it is both expensive and dangerous for unqualified people to mess about with electrical alterations which are covered by Part P. At DIY Doctor we get 80,000 people every wek using the site. In the last 7 years we have dealt with deaths and burned out (uninsured) houses not to mention thousands of electrical accidents. We believe Part P electrical work should not be done by the DIY'er in ANY circumstances. The electrical authorities and building inspectors will be the first to tell you that, having done electrical installations, or any other structural (approval required) work in their home, only 2% of homeowners seek the correct permisions. Its extremely dangerous in DIY world and we do not want to give the idea in any way, shape, manner or form that it is OK for the DIY'er to start playing electrician at home. If you answer electrical questions in the future we would be pleased if you would refer to user to our comprehensive project (DIY PROJECTS) on Part P of the building regulations where at least they will be informed where they are breaking the law and putting themselves (and more importantly others who share their home) at risk.
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Postby Homebuilder » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:31 am

Agree with you wholeheartedly thedoctor, It is extremely dangerous to "play" with electricity if you are not 100% sure what you are doing.
All I wanted to point out is that it is not "illegal" to DIY, just get it checked!
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Postby ericmark » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:46 pm

Illegal it may not be but BS7671:2001 can be used in a court of law. Also an electrician can do an inspection and test but he can't sign the installers or designers part of an installation certificate. This is made very plain in Part P as it states only the person installing the cables will know if they have been laid correctly. The whole thing depends on the Local Authority on if they will accept a certificate signed by a DIY person! Or to get some electrician to say he did the work.
The rules have been there for years there have been two types of Installation Certificates those with multi and those with single signatures.
A minor works certificate, and Inspection and test Certificate the new bit Part P says for Domestic you must inform before you start unless emergency or registered electrician and a copy now must be sent to council either direct or via selected clearing houses for people registered with them.
Plus the council may pay for the work to be inspected by their appointed agent if they wish.
But the tests and signing have been required for many many years. Failure is regarded as negligent and law courts could and have found people working on electrical systems guilty of manslaughter where negligent is proved. The published one was where a green wire had been incorrectly placed on a central heating boiler and the house had no earths the person working on the house had failed to test the work before leaving and as the boiler switch off it made bath live.
The house holder was also fined for not getting an inspection and test done every ten years but the person working on the boiler was guilty of manslaughter.
It was stated at the time if an electrician fits a plug on a kettle in the house where it is to be used then he should also check the socket it plugs into is OK. I think they went OTT but that was the statement which of course resulted it being reported in all trade mags with adverts for latest test equipment.
So yes not illegal but it might just as well be!!!
ericmark

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