Problem with bathroom light


Postby eastcoast » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:39 pm

Hello I would appreciate some advice.

I installed 4 lights in my lounge last week with no problem and today took down my old bathroom light and installed a new one but it is not working.

There were 3 wires in one green and yellow sleeve that I fitted to the earth terminal, 2 black wires that I fitted to the neutral terminal and one black wire with a red sleeve that I fitted to the live terminal.

Also 3 other red wires that I assume are the loop, I taped up the ends of each one of those with insulation tape and kept them well away from the other wires.

The bulbs are new and the big screw type, I cannot test them in any of my other lights as they all take different types of bulbs.

Not sure what to do next.
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Postby kbrownie » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:42 pm

eastcoast,
The wiring arrangement sounds okay, but You should sleeve all earths individually and the reds should not just be taped together they should be terminated in a connection block.
After you have done that:
Check for loose connection in that fitting and switch.
if all seems okay! as all other lights are working on the circuit probally the bulb, unless you have damage to cables!
Regards
KB
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Postby eastcoast » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:11 pm

Thanks for the reply.

I will sleeve all the earths individually as they supplied plenty of sleeving.

On the lounge lights I installed there was an extra terminal to put the 3 red loop wires but in this light (Geneva flush) there is not.

There are only 3 terminals, one for Live, Neutral and earth.

I have double and trebble checked the connections and they are good and had a good look to see if I have damaged the cables but all seems ok.

I do need to test these new bulbs but am new to this area so don't know who to ask or where to test them.

I was reading here http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/re ... itting.htm
and in the diagram it shows 4 terminals, earth, neutral , live and switch but there is no switch terminal in the light fitting I have bought.
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Postby kbrownie » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:27 pm

eastcoast,
On the light fitting you can group the cables up.

All earths together in earth terminal

Blue side (neutral) on fitting, connect the 2 Blacks these are your in-coming and out going neutrals.

Brown side (live) on fitting connect the Black cable with red tag on, that is or should be a switch wire (these should now be Sleeved Brown)

Then the 3 reds together in a connection strip/block, 2 of these are in-coming and out going lives and the other is making your live connection to the switch and this is your other switch wire.

As long as the cables are not loose or damaged and were configured that way before. It can only be the bulb, faulty fitting or fuse/mcb but if they had blown all the rest of lights on circuit should be out.
Regards
KB
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Postby eastcoast » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:44 am

Thanks for explaining that KB.

This morning I took down the new light fitting and re-installed the old fitting so I can at least have some light for a shave tonight :)

During installation of the old fitting the red sleeve fell off the black switch wire, I guessed which of the 3 black wires it came off of and put it back on and then marked that wire so I would not be confused in future.

The light works fine, but if I had put the red sleeve onto the wrong black wire would the light still work?

Also the 2 wires connecting the ceiling rose to the light were both brown (not 1 blue and 1 brown in this diagram) http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/ceilingrose.htm

When connecting these 2 brown wires to the light where the bulb is inserted there were no markings on the 2 terminals for instance Live and neutral. So I suppose it does not matter which of the 2 terminals they are connected to?

Regards
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Postby kbrownie » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:24 pm

Hi eastcoast
if you did mix up the blacks they would not work as you would be switching a live either straight back to the supply via the in-coming neutral or to the next light via the out going neutral and not suppling your load (the light) with a live!
as far as Docs project diagrams are concerned they are spot on, showing two Browns from switch to light. You can get Twin and Earth with two Browns to be used as switch wires and this is good practise! But what you normally get is the electrician useing the twin and earth with Brown and Blue cables (used to be Red and Black like yours) and tagging or sleeving the blue (black) to indicate that it is a switch wire. That's what you have.
and yes the light will work if you connect the switch wire the other way round on the lamp.
Regards and glad to hear you have light!
KB
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Postby eastcoast » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:05 pm

Just wanted to add that I had the bulbs tested in a shop today and the both work.

What I plan on doing is to disconnect the wires from the ceiling rose and then fix the new light fitting to the ceiling.
Then use the ceiling rose to connect all the wires up again as in this diagram and use 2 wires (from the Neutral and Switch terminals) to connect the ceiling rose to the new light fitting as it was done with the old fitting.

On the new fitting I have a Live and Neutral terminal to connect the 2 wires to but what about the earth terminal on the new light fitting, do I need to put any of the 3 earth wires onto the new light fitting or is it ok to leave all 3 in the ceiling rose?

That is how it was done on the fitting I will replace.
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Postby kbrownie » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:30 am

I can't say i've really studied the diagrams in the projects,
So hard to comment, i'm just aware they are there and a highly recommened refference point.
Your light fitting could double insulated (look for symbol on light,
square inside a square) and that is why it has no earthing terminal. But you must still connect all earths up, to keep continuity of the earth to rest of lights in circuit.
Take a note of the connection that are currently making your old light work.
The arrangement should be:
2 blacks together neutral side of light
1 black with red tag live side of light
3 reds terminated together with nothing else
3 green&yellows terminated together either by connector at light or seperate connector if light double insulated.
The new light fitting could still be faulty!
Regards, be safe and good luck.
KB
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Postby eastcoast » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:09 am

That is correct, currently the light is wired in a ceiling rose.

2 black wires in the Neutral terminal and a brown wire from that terminal to one of the two terminals in the light fitting where the bulb fits.

1 black wire with a red sleeve into the Switch terminal with 1 brown wire going from that terminal into one of the two terminals in the light fitting where the bulb fits.

3 red wires in the live terminal.

The only difference between the old light fitting and the new one is that I have an earth terminal.

If I connect all 3 earth wires to the terminal in the rose do I need to add one from the rose to the new light fitting or just leave it empty?
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Postby kbrownie » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:59 pm

Hi eastcoast
just copied your reply and note the text in brackets

2 black wires in the Neutral terminal and a brown
(do you mean Blue?)
wire from that terminal to one of the two terminals in the light fitting where the bulb fits.

1 black wire with a red sleeve into the Switch terminal with 1 brown wire (or is this blue?)
going from that terminal into one of the two terminals in the light fitting where the bulb fits.

3 red wires in the live terminal. (That's Okay)

The only difference between the old light fitting and the new one is that I have an earth terminal.

If I connect all 3 earth wires to the terminal in the rose do I need to add one from the rose to the new light fitting or just leave it empty?
(If the new fitting has an earth terminal? yes it should be connected)

KB
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Postby Kenj » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:02 pm

Hi,
Can I suggest an easy way to test the new light fitting?
Simply wire the new fitting to a three pin plug fitted with a 3 Amp fuse. Insert the plug into a ring main socket and switch on the socket. If the light fails to work, either it or the bulbs are defective. Take the light back to where you bought it from, they will be able to identify if the bulbs are naff.
As a simple test, most defective bulbs rattle if you shake them gently.
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Postby eastcoast » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:02 am

Thanks for the replies.

kbrownie, the 2 wires from the ceiling rose to the old light fitting were both brown.
When I went into an electrical shop to get the bulbs tested a couple of days ago I mentioned this to the guy in the shop and asked which one was live and which one neutral. He said some light fittings you can put the wires on any way round and showed me a new fitting like that.

My new light fitting, although it is not marked with L or N the paperwork that came with it says
"if the lampholder does not have any terminal markings you can identify which is live and neutral by looking inside the lampholder. The live wire should go to the central connector and the neutral wire should go to the side connector."

So I have marked the terminals on the new lampholder with blue and red marker pen and will make sure I connect the Switch Live terminal to the live on the lampholder and also add an earth wire to connect the ceiling rose to the new lampholder.

Kenj, good suggestion. I wired the light fitting to a 3 pin plug and a 3 amp fuse and the light fitting does work :)
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Postby eastcoast » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:01 am

Thanks guys, the new light is installed and working now with an added earth wire from ceiling rose to new fitting and new blue wire from neutral and new brown wire from live to light fitting.
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Postby kbrownie » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:15 pm

Hooray!
Glad to hear it's now working.
KB
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